Total workouts completed today

People in the gym at today's peak

People working out now

More statistics
Message Boards

3-DAY REFRESH: GET YOUR BODY BACK ON THE FAST TRACK TO WEIGHT LOSS AND HEALTHY EATING HABITS

Message Boards

Whether you're seeking expert advice or looking for peer support, you'll find helpful and knowledgeable friends on the Message Boards 24 hours a day. 

 

How to post photos in your Message Board threads:


Threads [ Previous | Next ]
postworkout
Showing 1 - 20 of 23 results.
Items per Page
Page of 2
postworkout
11/4/12 5:01 PM
I wam starting the body beast program Monday the 5th and am looking foward to it. My question is this where i work until 5 30 monday - thursday I will not be working out unil 7 or 715 those nights. In the postworkout section is says put a carb liquid with your base shake and fuel shot supplements but since i will more the likely not get done until 8 or later should i still add a carb liquid or protein liquid or just water

thanks
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/4/12 6:11 PM as a reply to ddanmob.
It's not that sophisticated, I don't think. Best advice -- drink water throughout your workout and throughout your day. Within an hour of finishing the workout eat a yogurt or some cottage cheese, maybe with a little bit of honey or syrup to sweeten it with a simple sugar.

The 4:1 carb:protein ratio is based on a very small body of research, and there's no reason to think it really needs to be that strict. You just need a little bit of simple carbs to induce an insulin spike, which will drive glucose and amino acids into your muscle cells. And there's no reason you need some supplement to accomplish this -- you could eat some beef jerky and a slice of bread and it would accomplish the same thing.
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/6/12 1:20 AM as a reply to PaulX2.
PaulX2:
It's not that sophisticated, I don't think. Best advice -- drink water throughout your workout and throughout your day. Within an hour of finishing the workout eat a yogurt or some cottage cheese, maybe with a little bit of honey or syrup to sweeten it with a simple sugar.

The 4:1 carb:protein ratio is based on a very small body of research, and there's no reason to think it really needs to be that strict. You just need a little bit of simple carbs to induce an insulin spike, which will drive glucose and amino acids into your muscle cells. And there's no reason you need some supplement to accomplish this -- you could eat some beef jerky and a slice of bread and it would accomplish the same thing.


I have to agree with this. You don't need a recovery shake. However, it is convenient, to mix up a protein shake and down it within an hour of a workout.

I have often grabbed a ham sandwich post-workout which is somewhere within a carb protein ratio that seems to work. At the end of the day, you can fuel your body and workouts strictly though your diet. Supplementation is often an easier (and perhaps more measured) way to get what you need, but good food does the same thing.....

There was an interesting BBC documentary about sports supplements a while back, and the guys doing the bleeding edge research thought a sandwich with the right balance of nutrients post-workout was probably the best thing to eat.....
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/6/12 7:03 AM as a reply to ddanmob.
ddanmob:
I wam starting the body beast program Monday the 5th and am looking foward to it. My question is this where i work until 5 30 monday - thursday I will not be working out unil 7 or 715 those nights. In the postworkout section is says put a carb liquid with your base shake and fuel shot supplements but since i will more the likely not get done until 8 or later should i still add a carb liquid or protein liquid or just water

thanks


I love the P90X recovery drink. Been using it for 5+ years. Just ordered and recieved the Fuel Shot so I'm not really sure about this one. Going to try it. Bottom line, when it comes to nutrition, in my own opinion and experience, is what are your goals? What do you want to achieve? Do you want to Beast up, add mass and get bigger? Try the supplements the program recommends. I've seen the transformations from this program. They are awesome and most of the ones I've talked to used two or all four of the recommended Body Beast Supplements. My opinion is do what you feel is right but also track your intake. I recommend Fitday.com or Myfitnesspal.com to see what's right the best combo for you to get the ressults you seek.

There is no right or wrong. Everyone is different and everyone has their own opinion. I'm a believer in supplementation and I'm a beachbody Supplement Junkie. I trust the company, I trust the products and they have helped me to achieve my goals.

Right now I'm using Body Beast to get stronger, builder muscle and actually lose weight so I'm toying with my caloric intake and my ratio of Carbs / Proteins / Fats...mainly the Carbs to Proteins. Again depending on your goals the nutrition plan your following those ratio's will be different. I'm using Body Beast but following the P90X meal plan methodology of High Proteins / lower carbs in the first 30 days to cut fat from the get go. I'm not looking to gain mass just transfer the mass I have and lose some in the process. To achieve this I my not be using a post workout drink other than Beachbody's Stength and Mucsle formula. If I add the P90X Recovery Drink or the Fuel Shot, my carbs would be wicked high but on the flip side, those two products help aid in recovery, muscle soreness and also energy. The Fuel Shot claims to help you increase your strength faster.

My advice play with it. Ask questions and track what you're doing so you know what works for you and what needs adjusting.

Joe
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/6/12 11:12 AM as a reply to JoePetri.
Jimmer74:
There was an interesting BBC documentary about sports supplements a while back, and the guys doing the bleeding edge research thought a sandwich with the right balance of nutrients post-workout was probably the best thing to eat.....

Yeah, people don't really recognize how the biggest money maker in all of fitness is supplements, and how little evidence and how much quackery there is.

JoePetri:
Right now I'm using Body Beast to get stronger, builder muscle and actually lose weight so I'm toying with my caloric intake and my ratio of Carbs / Proteins / Fats...mainly the Carbs to Proteins.

It's a good bodybuilding program, like for people who want to oil up, put on a thong, and flex their muscles on a stage, which presupposes that your body fat is pretty low. But it's a very weak strength and fitness program. You need very heavy compound multijoint lifts, with programming that forces you to increase weight with every workout, in order to build real strength. These big, heavy compound lifts are far more effective at inducing testosterone and growth hormone secretion, as well as the so called 'afterburn' calorie expenditure.

If you're a novice doing deadlifts with a barbell, you could increase your lift (and therefore strength) by over 100 pounds in just a couple months if you're doing the right program (happened with me -- I went from deadlifting around 150 pounds to deadlifting 300 pounds in about 6 weeks of a barbell program), and that was AFTER having finished Body Beast. The dumbbell deadlifts in BB are just too light to induce that kind of strength adaptation.

The point is that there are different kinds of programming. Body Beast (and to a degree P90X) have bodybuilding workouts. These are decidedly not good workouts for strength training or athletic conditioning, though -- strength programs look much different. They're based on doing maybe 5 or 6 core lifts -- squats, deadlifts, bench, standing press, chinups, and maybe a couple olympic lifts like a power clean or power snatch.
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/7/12 12:14 AM as a reply to PaulX2.
PaulX2:

Yeah, people don't really recognize how the biggest money maker in all of fitness is supplements, and how little evidence and how much quackery there is.


Ha ha! Yeah, I try to eat good food and train hard. It's easy to overcomplicate things.......

PaulX2:
Right now I'm using Body Beast to get stronger, builder muscle and actually lose weight so I'm toying with my caloric intake and my ratio of Carbs / Proteins / Fats...mainly the Carbs to Proteins.
It's a good bodybuilding program, like for people who want to oil up, put on a thong, and flex their muscles on a stage, which presupposes that your body fat is pretty low. But it's a very weak strength and fitness program. You need very heavy compound multijoint lifts, with programming that forces you to increase weight with every workout, in order to build real strength. These big, heavy compound lifts are far more effective at inducing testosterone and growth hormone secretion, as well as the so called 'afterburn' calorie expenditure.

If you're a novice doing deadlifts with a barbell, you could increase your lift (and therefore strength) by over 100 pounds in just a couple months if you're doing the right program (happened with me -- I went from deadlifting around 150 pounds to deadlifting 300 pounds in about 6 weeks of a barbell program), and that was AFTER having finished Body Beast. The dumbbell deadlifts in BB are just too light to induce that kind of strength adaptation.


I tend to agree with this to an extent..... I don't think it's a strictly bodybuilding routine though. You will see strength gains from it too. But, you are right, faster progression will be made by running something like 5x5 or 5/3/1. In fact, some people run 5/3/1 with accessory work not too dissimilar to the stuff in Body Beast.....

I, personally, am running Body Beast at a slight deficit to shred myself down a bit. I know that most people will say I'm doing the wrong programme for this (or doing the right programme the wrong way!) but I'm seeing some good changes in a short time. It's an ascetic thing (although you'll forgive me if I don't oil myself up and put on a thong!).

After this I'm going to run 5/3/1 with one of the accessory templates and some sprint work. I just need to persuade the missus that a squat rack and barbell will make a great addition to the flat (apartment - for my US cousins). She's not currently buying it!

I'd be interested to hear what programme you're running Paul and what kind of accessory work you do.....

(.... I realise that this has now blown way OT)
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/7/12 4:18 AM as a reply to PaulX2.
PaulX2:
Body Beast (and to a degree P90X) have bodybuilding workouts. These are decidedly not good workouts for strength training or athletic conditioning, though -- strength programs look much different. They're based on doing maybe 5 or 6 core lifts -- squats, deadlifts, bench, standing press, chinups, and maybe a couple olympic lifts like a power clean or power snatch.


Oh man, I cold not disagree with you more Paul. Speaking from my own results, my own gains as an athlete and teaching P90X as a lacrosse coach to my players, both Body Beast and P90X especially, are a amazing workouts to improve strength, athletic performance and cardio. The aesthetics seen with P90X and Body which you call Body Building workouts, are a result largely due to people following the nutrition plan provided with the program.
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/7/12 5:31 AM as a reply to ddanmob.
I'm also surprised you said that as well, Paul. I live here in Gainesville and have watched some of the Florida gator workouts and they look very similiar to P90X and/or Aslyum/Insanity.

Now the linemen hit the heavy weights. But the skill poistion players definately have conditioning very similiar to BB.
I'm pretty sure their strength and athletic conditioning is off the charts.
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/7/12 8:27 AM as a reply to Jimmer74.
Jimmer74:
I tend to agree with this to an extent..... I don't think it's a strictly bodybuilding routine though. You will see strength gains from it too. But, you are right, faster progression will be made by running something like 5x5 or 5/3/1. In fact, some people run 5/3/1 with accessory work not too dissimilar to the stuff in Body Beast.....


Yeah, but the point is that it is accessory work. The primary lifts for the shoulders are bench press and overhead press, and secondary lifts for the rear deltoids are chinups/pullups and rows. Doing rear delt flys -- if you REALLY need to target rear delts -- is superfluous. Same with triceps -- if you bench 250 pounds, press 150 pounds, do bar dips (not chair dips), and do full extension / dead hang chin ups, you are blasting the entire range of motion of your triceps with heavy weights. So what more is a kickback or a skullcrusher going to give you?

So yeah, accessory work is one thing. But the key difference is the primary lifts.

Another difference is that bodybuilding is volume-based, hence the 15-12-8 and the tempo formats. Strength training is load-based. Hence the use of much heavier weights in a 5-3-1 or 5x5 format. Finally, most people who choose a program like Body Beast are still capable of linear strength progression -- which requires doing the same core exercises multiple times per week with escalating weights. But you're basically doing each body part only once per week in Body Beast, so the programming would keep you below the linear progression slope.

JoePetri:
Oh man, I cold not disagree with you more Paul. Speaking from my own results, my own gains as an athlete and teaching P90X as a lacrosse coach to my players, both Body Beast and P90X especially, are a amazing workouts to improve strength, athletic performance and cardio.

You'll find if you read volumes of literature about strength and conditioning programs, about sheer strength building programs, and about athletic development, is that Body Beast is very very different. For lifters who are reasonably far from their athletic potential (which means for healthy adult men something like bench pressing 150% of body weight, squatting 200% of body weight, etc), this program is highly inefficient at strength development. Body parts can and in fact need to be given overload stimulus 2-3 times a week until people have a continuous heavy lifting training age somewhere between 6 months and 2 years. Isolating movements like the lateral raise, front raise, rear delt raise, preacher curl, hammer curl, all this tiny single joint stuff, wastes tons of time. Just doing a simple overhead press, with progressively increasing weights, can give your anterior and middle deltoids an enormous growth stimulus -- while at the same time engaging a kinetic chain that involves the muscles of the entire body.

As Dan John says, "everything works -- for about 6 weeks". Point is that Body Beast will work -- to an extent. But if what you're interested in is STRENGTH, it's worlds away from the state of the art. You can read stuff from the new functional fitness guys like Mark Boyle and Vern Gambetta and Gray Cook, stuff from the old school powerlifting style coaches like Mark Rippetoe and Jim Wendler and Louie Simmons, or stuff from the more progressive powerlifting people like Dan John and Pavel Tsatsouline. And they all agree about one thing -- bodybuilding style workouts with lots of single joint exercises are both inefficient and ineffective in the big picture.
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/7/12 10:50 AM as a reply to PaulX2.
PaulX2:


Yeah, but the point is that it is accessory work. The primary lifts for the shoulders are bench press and overhead press, and secondary lifts for the rear deltoids are chinups/pullups and rows. Doing rear delt flys -- if you REALLY need to target rear delts -- is superfluous. Same with triceps -- if you bench 250 pounds, press 150 pounds, do bar dips (not chair dips), and do full extension / dead hang chin ups, you are blasting the entire range of motion of your triceps with heavy weights. So what more is a kickback or a skullcrusher going to give you?

So yeah, accessory work is one thing. But the key difference is the primary lifts.


I agree with you. I think that you can have limited (but still some) strength gains with BB. But you could also have the same strength gains with P90X or another programme. I also think it's purpose is primarily ascetic - which is the reason I'm doing the programme.

I also agree you'll stall out pretty quickly on BB as far as it's limited strength gains are concerned. You can gain some strength, but it's not the primary purpose of the programme and it'll quickly top out.

I'm kicking my heels until I get the requisite equipment, clear some space for it and receive spousal approval - then I'm doing Wendler's programme. I agree with pretty much all you say - I'm not usually a fan of isolating. I prefer exercises like pull ups and dips. I'm also a massive fan of kettlebells for just this reason.

However, I did need to do something totally different and something that would burn some calories and BB was the thing I did. And I'm enjoying it.... whilst realising that it's a great way to hold onto most of my muscle mass while I shred off some fat.

Anyway, what programme are you actually running?
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/8/12 11:30 AM as a reply to ddanmob.
There's definitely endless debate about post workout nutrition. Some say 4:1, 3:1, 5:1, some say straight whey protein, some say just straight food.

My 2 cents is that it doesn't make a world of difference as long as you're getting something in post workout and keeping the fats minimal the first meal or so, to really let the insulin spike.

Post workout your body is high on growth hormone, so I'd actually recommend pushing pack your first post workout nutrition (whatever it is) to about 45-60 minutes after exercise, and just drink water.

Insulin, although beneficial, will push out growth hormone as well. So this allows you to get a little more benefit out of it, and you're not going to go catabolic right away.

Personally I've seen great success with 4:1 carb to protein ratio post workout shakes, and they're damn easy to make. I just add a little Carbo Gain (simple maltodextrin with little to no sugar) with Optimum Nutrition 100% Natural Whey Protein (no artificial flavors) until it comes out to 4:1.

I've written my little recipe down in grams so I can make it quickly and easily.

In your case I'd workout, then chug my 4:1 drink right after finishing, then eat something an hour later. If at all possible though, I'd try to wake up earlier in the day and get it done before going to work.

Always better to put workouts before calories in my opinion. I train fasted which results in greater insulin sensitivity post workout, and I personally get the best workouts of my life that way too. =D Just another suggestion
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/8/12 11:33 AM as a reply to PaulX2.
PaulX2:
Jimmer74:
There was an interesting BBC documentary about sports supplements a while back, and the guys doing the bleeding edge research thought a sandwich with the right balance of nutrients post-workout was probably the best thing to eat.....

Yeah, people don't really recognize how the biggest money maker in all of fitness is supplements, and how little evidence and how much quackery there is.

JoePetri:
Right now I'm using Body Beast to get stronger, builder muscle and actually lose weight so I'm toying with my caloric intake and my ratio of Carbs / Proteins / Fats...mainly the Carbs to Proteins.

It's a good bodybuilding program, like for people who want to oil up, put on a thong, and flex their muscles on a stage, which presupposes that your body fat is pretty low. But it's a very weak strength and fitness program. You need very heavy compound multijoint lifts, with programming that forces you to increase weight with every workout, in order to build real strength. These big, heavy compound lifts are far more effective at inducing testosterone and growth hormone secretion, as well as the so called 'afterburn' calorie expenditure.

If you're a novice doing deadlifts with a barbell, you could increase your lift (and therefore strength) by over 100 pounds in just a couple months if you're doing the right program (happened with me -- I went from deadlifting around 150 pounds to deadlifting 300 pounds in about 6 weeks of a barbell program), and that was AFTER having finished Body Beast. The dumbbell deadlifts in BB are just too light to induce that kind of strength adaptation.

The point is that there are different kinds of programming. Body Beast (and to a degree P90X) have bodybuilding workouts. These are decidedly not good workouts for strength training or athletic conditioning, though -- strength programs look much different. They're based on doing maybe 5 or 6 core lifts -- squats, deadlifts, bench, standing press, chinups, and maybe a couple olympic lifts like a power clean or power snatch.


Body Beast never claimed to be a strength program though Paul, nor an endurance program, only a mass building hypertrophy program.
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/8/12 11:55 AM as a reply to PaulX2.
PaulX2:
Jimmer74:
I tend to agree with this to an extent..... I don't think it's a strictly bodybuilding routine though. You will see strength gains from it too. But, you are right, faster progression will be made by running something like 5x5 or 5/3/1. In fact, some people run 5/3/1 with accessory work not too dissimilar to the stuff in Body Beast.....


Yeah, but the point is that it is accessory work. The primary lifts for the shoulders are bench press and overhead press, and secondary lifts for the rear deltoids are chinups/pullups and rows. Doing rear delt flys -- if you REALLY need to target rear delts -- is superfluous. Same with triceps -- if you bench 250 pounds, press 150 pounds, do bar dips (not chair dips), and do full extension / dead hang chin ups, you are blasting the entire range of motion of your triceps with heavy weights. So what more is a kickback or a skullcrusher going to give you?

So yeah, accessory work is one thing. But the key difference is the primary lifts.

Another difference is that bodybuilding is volume-based, hence the 15-12-8 and the tempo formats. Strength training is load-based. Hence the use of much heavier weights in a 5-3-1 or 5x5 format. Finally, most people who choose a program like Body Beast are still capable of linear strength progression -- which requires doing the same core exercises multiple times per week with escalating weights. But you're basically doing each body part only once per week in Body Beast, so the programming would keep you below the linear progression slope.

JoePetri:
Oh man, I cold not disagree with you more Paul. Speaking from my own results, my own gains as an athlete and teaching P90X as a lacrosse coach to my players, both Body Beast and P90X especially, are a amazing workouts to improve strength, athletic performance and cardio.

You'll find if you read volumes of literature about strength and conditioning programs, about sheer strength building programs, and about athletic development, is that Body Beast is very very different. For lifters who are reasonably far from their athletic potential (which means for healthy adult men something like bench pressing 150% of body weight, squatting 200% of body weight, etc), this program is highly inefficient at strength development. Body parts can and in fact need to be given overload stimulus 2-3 times a week until people have a continuous heavy lifting training age somewhere between 6 months and 2 years. Isolating movements like the lateral raise, front raise, rear delt raise, preacher curl, hammer curl, all this tiny single joint stuff, wastes tons of time. Just doing a simple overhead press, with progressively increasing weights, can give your anterior and middle deltoids an enormous growth stimulus -- while at the same time engaging a kinetic chain that involves the muscles of the entire body.

As Dan John says, "everything works -- for about 6 weeks". Point is that Body Beast will work -- to an extent. But if what you're interested in is STRENGTH, it's worlds away from the state of the art. You can read stuff from the new functional fitness guys like Mark Boyle and Vern Gambetta and Gray Cook, stuff from the old school powerlifting style coaches like Mark Rippetoe and Jim Wendler and Louie Simmons, or stuff from the more progressive powerlifting people like Dan John and Pavel Tsatsouline. And they all agree about one thing -- bodybuilding style workouts with lots of single joint exercises are both inefficient and ineffective in the big picture.


Paul I remember you from months ago in the P90X2 forums and Asylum as well. I noticed you have a very downward and negative opinion on a lot of the Beachbody programs. I haven't seen you say very many positive things about them at all in fact.

I notice you spend large amounts of time on the Beachbody forums as well which is curious to me.

Although I'm interested to 'see' some of your results thus far.

You went to great lengths in this post to explain something most everyone already knows. Which is that compound movements build more muscle than isolation exercises. Not to sound rude but... "Duh!"

Are you saying there are no compound movements in Body Beast? lol

You talk a lot about strength and power but not everyone is out to do a 1 rep max blowout or enter a powerlifting competition. In fact I'd bet 99% of the people doing Body Beast have the same goal in mind, adding muscle mass.

You've fallen into that hole of "I've done tons of research, I'm right you're wrong!" mentality instead of having an open mind and some respect for other people's opinions and viewpoints.

You're also sold on olympic bars over dumbbells, that's fine! Again, not everyone doing Body Beast is interested in power lifting, or record setting insane deadlifts with a bar.

Dumbbells work just fine for adding mass, in fact there are many articles of study that suggest dumbbells are superior to adding mass than a barbell and PLENTY that show them as a much safer means, especially in the bench press.

In the world of health and fitness there's many different viewpoints my friend. You can't go around pointing fingers at this or that saying it's inefficient or ineffective.

You have to remember as well that a lot of people on these forums are just starting out in their new fitness lifestyle as well and that 99% of their battle is a mental one. If they believe that what they're doing is working than it will! If they come on here and see Dr. Paul spewing his viewpoints on why he thinks this or that program is a waste of time it's not going to help their cause my friend.

What works for you may not work for everyone else. Try to have a more open mind!

I'm not going to debate the effectiveness of Body Beast with you either, but my results are pretty incredible and have gone far beyond 6 weeks. I've extended my schedule to 18 weeks by doubling my bulking round from 6 to 12, and my Beast phase from 3 to 4 weeks. I'm up almost 15lbs lean mass (not including lean food mass, lean creatine water gain, 1% BF gain verified by 4 sites, or lean glycogen load, all of that would put me over 20lbs)

"If" I ever come to a plateau with body beast in regards to reaching my genetic potential for adding mass (one of my goals) then I'll deal with it when I meet that challenge. In the meantime I'm makin' awesome gains, and havin' a blast doin' it with some tried and true compound AND isolation exercises right from the comfort of my own home.
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/8/12 1:10 PM as a reply to ddanmob.
To be fair to Paul, he has said on numerous occasions that P90X2 is the best complete program he has ever done.

But his intellect sometimes gets in the way of good intention.

As for post workout, here is some clinical data.

Ivy et al, (1) examined the effect of a carbohydrate-protein supplement on endurance performance during exercise of varying intensity. Increasing the plasma glucose and insulin concentrations during prolonged variable intensity exercise by supplementing with carbohydrate has been found to spare muscle glycogen and increase aerobic endurance. Furthermore, the addition of protein to a carbohydrate supplement will enhance the insulin response of a carbohydrate supplement. The purpose of the present study was to compare the effects of a carbohydrate and a carbohydrate-protein supplement on aerobic endurance performance.

Nine trained cyclists exercised on 3 separate occasions at intensities that varied between 45% and 75% VO2max for 3 h and then at 85% VO2max until fatigued. Supplements (200 ml) were provided every 20 min and consisted of placebo, a 7.75% carbohydrate solution, and a 7.75% carbohydrate/1.94% protein solution. Treatments were administered using a double-blind randomized design. Carbohydrate supplementation significantly increased time to exhaustion (carbohydrate 19.7 +/- 4.6 min vs. placebo 12.7 +/- 3.1 min), while the addition of protein enhanced the effect of the carbohydrate supplement (carbohydrate-protein 26.9 +/- 4.5 min, p < .05). Blood glucose and plasma insulin levels were elevated above placebo during carbohydrate and carbohydrate-protein supplementation, but no differences were found between the carbohydrate and carbohydrate-protein treatments. In summary, we found that the addition of protein to a carbohydrate supplement enhanced aerobic endurance performance above that which occurred with carbohydrate alone, but the reason for this improvement in performance was not evident.

Miller et al., (2) likewise examined the metabolic response to a provision of mixed protein-carbohydrate supplementation during endurance exercise.

The interaction of substrates and hormones in response to ingestion of intact proteins during endurance exercise is unknown. This study characterized substrate and hormone responses to supplementation during endurance exercise. Nine male runners participated in 3 trials in which a non-fat (MILK), carbohydrate (CHO), or placebo (PLA) drink was consumed during a 2-hour treadmill run at 65% VO2max. Circulating levels of insulin, glucagon, epinephrine, norepinephrine, growth hormone, testosterone, and cortisol were measured. Plasma substrates included glucose, lactate, free fatty acids, and select amino acids. Except for insulin and cortisol, hormones increased with exercise. While post-exercise insulin concentrations declined similarly in all 3 trials, the glucagon increase was greatest following MILK consumption. CHO blunted the post-exercise increase in growth hormone compared to levels in MILK.

Free fatty acids and plasma amino acids also were responsive to nutritional supplementation with both CHO and MILK attenuating the rise in free fatty acids compared to the increase observed in PLA. Correspondingly, respiratory exchange ratio increased during CHO. Essential amino acids increased significantly only after MILK and were either unchanged or decreased in CHO. PLA was characterized by a decrease in branched-chain amino acid concentrations. Modest nutritional supplementation in this study altered the endocrine response as well as substrate availability and utilization following and during an endurance run, respectively.

(3) reported post exercise protein-carbohydrate and carbohydrate supplements increase muscle glycogen in men and women. They previously demonstrated that women did not increase intramuscular glycogen in response to an increased percent of dietary carbohydrate (CHO) (from 60 to 75% of energy intake).

CHO and CHO-protein (Pro) supplementation post exercise can potentiate glycogen resynthesis compared with placebo . We studied the effect of isoenergetic CHO and CHO-Pro-Fat supplements on muscle glycogen resynthesis in the first 4 hours after endurance exercise (90 min at 65% peak O2 consumption) in trained endurance athletes (men, n = 8; women, tested in midfollicular phase, n = 8). Each subject completed three sequential trials separated by 3 wk; a supplement was provided immediately and 1-h postexercise: 1) CHO (0.75 g/kg) + Pro (0.1 g/kg) + Fat (0.02 g/kg), 2) CHO (1 g/kg), and 3) placebo (Pl; artificial sweetener). Subjects were given prepackaged, isoenergetic, isonitrogenous diets, individualized to their habitual diet, for the day before and during the exercise trial. During exercise, women oxidized more lipid than did men (P < 0.05). Both of the supplement trials resulted in greater post exercise glucose and insulin compared with Pl (P < 0.01), with no gender differences. Similarly, both of these trials resulted in increased glycogen resynthesis (37.2 vs. 24. 6 mmol . kg dry muscle-1 . h-1, CHO vs. CHO-Pro-Fat, respectively) compared with Pl (7.5 mmol . kg dry muscle-1 . h-1; P < 0.001) with no gender differences. They concluded that post exercise CHO and CHO-Pro-Fat nutritional supplements can increase glycogen resynthesis to a greater extent than Pl for both men and women.

(4) compared carbohydrate, protein, and carbohydrate-protein supplementsto determine their effects on muscle glycogen storage during recovery from prolonged exhaustive exercise. Nine male subjects cycled for 2 h on three separate occasions to deplete their muscle glycogen stores. Immediately and 2 h after each exercise bout, they ingested 112.0 g carbohydrate (CHO), 40.7 g protein (PRO), or 112.0 g carbohydrate and 40.7 g protein (CHO-PRO). Blood samples were drawn before exercise, immediately after exercise, and throughout recovery. Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis immediately and 4 h after exercise. During recovery the plasma glucose response of the CHO treatment was significantly greater than that of the CHO-PRO treatment, but the plasma insulin response of the CHO-PRO treatment was significantly greater than that of the CHO treatment. Both the CHO and CHO-PRO treatments produced plasma glucose and insulin responses that were greater than those produced by the PRO treatment (P less than 0.05). The rate of muscle glycogen storage during the CHO-PRO treatment [35.5 +/- 3.3 (SE) mumol.g protein-1.h-1] was significantly faster than during the CHO treatment (25.6 +/- 2.3 mumol.g protein-1.h-1), which was significantly faster than during the PRO treatment (7.6 +/- 1.4 mumol.g protein-1.h-1). The results suggest that post exercise muscle glycogen storage can be enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement as a result of the interaction of carbohydrate and protein on insulin secretion.

(5) concluded that early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. They tested the hypothesis that a carbohydrate-protein (CHO-Pro) supplement would be more effective in the replenishment of muscle glycogen after exercise compared with a carbohydrate supplement of equal carbohydrate content (LCHO) or caloric equivalency (HCHO). After 2.5 +/- 0.1 h of intense cycling to deplete the muscle glycogen stores, subjects (n = 7) received, using a rank-ordered design, a CHO-Pro (80 g CHO, 28 g Pro, 6 g fat), LCHO (80 g CHO, 6 g fat), or HCHO (108 g CHO, 6 g fat) supplement immediately after exercise (10 min) and 2 h post exercise. Before exercise and during 4 h of recovery, muscle glycogen of the vastus lateralis was determined periodically by nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy. Exercise significantly reduced the muscle glycogen stores (final concentrations: 40.9 +/- 5.9 mmol/l CHO-Pro, 41.9 +/- 5.7 mmol/l HCHO, 40.7 +/- 5.0 mmol/l LCHO). After 240 min of recovery, muscle glycogen was significantly greater for the CHO-Pro treatment (88.8 +/- 4.4 mmol/l) when compared with the LCHO (70.0 +/- 4.0 mmol/l; P = 0.004) and HCHO (75.5 +/- 2.8 mmol/l; P = 0.013) treatments. Glycogen storage did not differ significantly between the LCHO and HCHO treatments. There were no significant differences in the plasma insulin responses among treatments, although plasma glucose was significantly lower during the CHO-Pro treatment. These results suggest that a CHO-Pro supplement is more effective for the rapid replenishment of muscle glycogen after exercise than a CHO supplement of equal CHO or caloric content.

SUMMARY: Endurance athletes should experiment with a meal recovery protocol that contains carbohydrate and protein, not simply carbohydrate alone. The best time to consume this meal is the first 30 minutes after exercise to take advantage of the limited post-exercise enzymes & hormonal carrier availability.






Studies:
1 D.L. Fogt, J.L. Ivy. Effects 0f Post Exercise Carbohydrate-Protein Supplement On Skeletal Muscle Glycogen Storage. Medicine & Science in Sports and Exercise. 32(5)S60, 2000.

This study showed that "The greater rate of recovery following glycogen-depleting exercise during the carb-protein treatment shown (in previous studies) was likely due to a greater glycogen restoration." Eight endurance-trained cyclists performed two trials consisting of a 2-hour glycogen depletion ride followed by ingestion of 12 oz of a carb-protein supplement (4:1 ratio) or a carbohydrate supplement immediately and 2 hours post-exercise. Trials were randomized and separated by 7 days. Blood samples were collected prior to exercise and throughout the 4-hour post-exercise recovery period. Muscle biopsies were taken immediately after and 4 hours post exercise for determination of muscle glycogen content. Ingestion of the carb-protein supplement resulted in a 17% greater plasma glucose response, a 92% greater insulin response, and a 128% greater storage of muscle glycogen compared to the carb-only supplement.

2 Ivy JL, Goforth HW Jr, Damon BM, McCauley TR, Parsons EC, Price TB. Early post-exercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. Journal of Applied Physiology. 93: 1337-1344, 2002.
This study showed that "a carb-protein supplement is more effective for the rapid replenishment of muscle glycogen after exercise than a carb-only supplement of equal carbohydrate or caloric content." Subjects completed a very long workout on stationary bikes and then drank either a carb-protein sports drink (4:1 ratio) or a carb-only sports drink of equal calories. Four hours later, muscle glycogen was significantly greater in those given the carb-protein sports drink.

3 Levenhagen, DK, Carr C, Carlson MG. Postexercise protein intake enhances whole-body and leg protein accretion in humans. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 34: 828-837, 2002.
This study found that post-exercise consumption of a carbohydrate-protein supplement increased protein synthesis in exercised muscles and throughout the body compared to a carb-only supplement and placebo. Five men and five women completed a one-hour stationary bicycle ride. Upon completion of the workout, subjects were randomly given either the placebo, the carb-only supplement, or the carb-protein supplement. The test was repeated until all subjects had received all three treatments. The carb-protein supplement increased plasma essential amino acids 33%, leg uptake of glucose 3.5-fold, and leg and whole-body protein synthesis 6-fold and 15%, respectively. Whereas post-exercise intake of either placebo or the carb-only supplement resulted in a net leg release of essential amino acids and net loss of whole-body and leg protein, the carb-protein supplement resulted in a net leg uptake of essential amino acids and net whole-body and leg protein gain.
4 Niles ES, Lachowetz T, Garfi J, Sullivan W, Smith JC, Leyh BP, Headley SA. Carbohydrate-protein drink improves time to exhaustion after recovery from endurance exercise. Journal of Exercise Physiology Online. 4:45-52, 2001.

This study demonstrated that "a carb-protein drink following glycogen depleting exercise may facilitate a greater rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis than a carbohydrate only beverage, hasten the recovery process, and improve exercise endurance during a second bout of exercise performed on the same day." Ten male athletes completed a long workout on stationary bikes, then drank either a carb-protein sports drink (4:1 ratio) or a carb-only sports drink. After a two-hour rest the subjects completed an endurance bout to exhaustion. The athletes went 20% longer with the carb-protein sports drink than with the carb-only sports drink.

5 S.L. Ready, J.G. Seifert. & E. Burke. The Effect of Two Sports Drink Formulations on Muscle Stress and Performance. Medicine & Science in Sports and Exercise. 31(5)S119, 1999.
This study demonstrated that "A carb-protein supplement, by providing additional carbohydrate and amino acids, may reduce post exercise muscle stress, as evidenced by a 36% decrease in 24-hour creatine kinase levels. Ten college-age males and females completed a 45-minute run, rested in a 10-minute transition, cycled for 90 minutes, and then performed a time trial. During the transition and 30 minutes into the bike segment, subjects ingested either a 15% carb-protein beverage (4:1 ratio) or a carb-only beverage. Blood samples were collected and analyzed for creatine kinase (a biomarker of muscle damage), lactic acid and glucose. There was a 36% reduction for the 24-hour post-exercise creatine kinase level in the carb-protein treatment.

6 Williams, Michael B., Raven, Peter B., Fogt, Donovan L., and Ivy, John L. Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance.
J Strength Cond Res, 2003 Feb;17(1):12-19
This study determined that "The rate of post-exercise recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment," and that "recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement." Eight endurance trained cyclists performed two trials consisting of a 2-hour glycogen depletion ride followed by an exhaustive ride at high intensity. Subjects received either a carb-protein beverage (4:1 ratio) or a carb-only sports drink immediately and 2 hours post-exercise. Post-exercise ingestion of carb-protein beverage (4:1 ratio), in comparison to the carb-only beverage, resulted in a 55% greater time to exhaustion during a subsequent exercise bout at 85% VO2max. Ingestion of the carb-protein beverage resulted in a 17% greater plasma glucose response, a 92% greater insulin response and a 128% greater storage of muscle glycogen compared to the carb-only beverage.

7 Williams, M., J. Ivy, And P. Raven. Effects Of Recovery Drinks After Prolonged Glycogen-Depletion Exercise. Medicine & Science in Sports and Exercise. 31(5)S124, 1999.
This study found that recovery from glycogen-depleting exercise was significantly enhanced by 4:1 carb:protein ratio recovery drink (RD) when compared to a carb-only sports drink (SD). In addition, the RD decreased the formation of final oxidation products, when compared to the SD. Eight male cyclists performed a two-hour cycling exercise bout followed by one to three 5-minute sprints. A four-hour recovery period ensued in which the subjects were given 24 ounces of either a RD or a SD. A performance test to exhaustion was then conducted. The recovery phase showed significant increases in both plasma glucose and insulin following RD ingestion as compared to SD. There was an average 66% increase in time to exhaustion during the performance ride following RD ingestion compared to SD. Final oxidation products following RD ingestion were significantly decreased as compared to SD ingestion.

8 Zawadzki KM , Yaspelkis BB,Ivy JL. Carbohydrate protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology. 72:1854-1859, 1992.
This study found that "post-exercise muscle glycogen storage can be enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement as a result of the interaction of carbohydrate and protein on insulin secretion." Nine men cycled for two hours on three occasions to deplete their muscle glycogen. After each workout they drank a carbohydrate, protein, or carb-protein supplement. The rate of muscle glycogen replenishment in the carbohydrate-protein treatment was 38% greater than in the carbohydrate treatment and more than three times greater than in the
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/8/12 1:58 PM as a reply to edthompson1234.
Coachedthompson:


SUMMARY: Endurance athletes should experiment with a meal recovery protocol that contains carbohydrate and protein, not simply carbohydrate alone.


Like I said: A ham sandwich!
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/9/12 5:14 AM as a reply to Jimmer74.
Jimmer74:
Coachedthompson:


SUMMARY: Endurance athletes should experiment with a meal recovery protocol that contains carbohydrate and protein, not simply carbohydrate alone.


Like I said: A ham sandwich!


Jimmer, I'm not sure if you read any of the clinical data but you should google to get the more expanded information. Liquid is optimum because less digestion occurs.

I personaly have experimented with both whole foods and liquid based recovery. In that I kept a journal for how each affected me with regards to recovery and strength gains and the later was significantly better.

Althought one to two hours after the liquid recovery I do introduce a food based 4 to 1 ratio.

Not trying to "push" my beliefs on you. Just trying to share so we can learn.

Thoughts?
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/9/12 9:26 AM as a reply to Jimmer74.
Jimmer74:
I'm kicking my heels until I get the requisite equipment, clear some space for it and receive spousal approval - then I'm doing Wendler's programme. I agree with pretty much all you say - I'm not usually a fan of isolating. I prefer exercises like pull ups and dips. I'm also a massive fan of kettlebells for just this reason.

However, I did need to do something totally different and something that would burn some calories and BB was the thing I did. And I'm enjoying it.... whilst realising that it's a great way to hold onto most of my muscle mass while I shred off some fat.

Anyway, what programme are you actually running?

I did Body Beast, then towards the end of the program I started to substitute in barbells for some of the same exercises (I've got a whole Olympic barbell set / bench / squat rack at home). At that point I switched to Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength.

I'm actually doing a bit of a variation of it. His program is based on squat, deadlift, bench press, standing press, and power clean. I consider chin ups and rows to be pretty essential if one is trying to have a full complement of movement patterns (i.e. a vertical pull and a horizontal pull). I also do dips which are a pretty amazing tricep / chest / upper abdominal move. Finally, I think there is definitely a role for some single leg work, which will deemphasize the prime movers and emphasize stabilizers.

So my workout looks like this:

Workout A
Squats 5x5
Bench Press 5x5
Deadlift 3x5
Power Clean 3x5
Rows (dumbbell or barbell) 3x5
One leg deadlifts 3x5
Bulgarian squats 3x5

Workout B
Squats 5x5
Press (standing) 3x5
Dip 3x5
Weighted Chinups 3x max reps
Power Snatch 3x5
One leg deadlift 3x5
Bulgarian squats 3x5

I do the workouts M-W-F. I sometimes add some shoulder and hip mobility work. I think this program is amazing for core and ab strength without any additional ab work, but sometimes I'll do foot-elevated planks (like from PAP Upper in X2) for additional ab strengthening. If abs are meant to work isometrically to stabilize the spine, then doing flexion-based exercises like situps are sort of nonfunctional movements -- so planks are a better move.

On Tues and Thurs I do a couple sets of HIIT sprint intervals and sometimes add kettlebells. Though I'm finding that any hip drive power I can develop from kettlebells I can probably develop better doing Power Cleans and Power Snatches.

Coachedthompson:
Jimmer, I'm not sure if you read any of the clinical data but you should google to get the more expanded information. Liquid is optimum because less digestion occurs

Whether you eat a solid or drink a liquid, you're going to be limited more by gastric motility than you will by the time it takes to actually digest the food. The time difference is negligible. That group in Ontario (I think at McMaster U) has shown differences between whey and casein-based compounds, but not looking at any easily applied endpoints (they're looking largely at biochemical markers, or looking at clinical markers in very small human samples).

And Ed, I appreciate your mention of my good intentions and I applaud yours as well. I'd point out that the studies you cite are primarily studies of endurance activities (in endurance-trained athletes). This is a biologically fundamentally different activity than weight lifting, and in fact you'd be hard pressed to find a single Beachbody program with similar metabolic demands (or similar participants) to most of these studies. In P90X, X2, and Beast, we're working in the world of Type 2b fibers and of phosphagen / anaerobic intervals -- with a bit of aerobic metabolism between exercises. The Type 1 / aerobic activity of prolonged endurance routines is very different. So I'd caution you to look for post-workout interventions that are studied in 1) groups similar to "us" (the typical body beast consumer) and 2) using fitness programming similar to Body Beast.
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/9/12 9:57 AM as a reply to ddanmob.
I see what you're saying Paul. That is one of the reasons why I tested both forms of recovery personally. It's definately not a huge secret that different bodies work different ways, though. So my case may be isolated. So for me, liquid is the whey (see what I did there) to go.

I see you as like a Bruce Lee of fitness. Funny I know. You always seem to be picking apart workout programs not to say they are crap but take the best things you can find from them and make them yours. I can see how Jacob could take offense to your approach but I have read tons of your posts and know where your intentions lay.

What are your thoughts on sprints, immediately followed by isometric holds like plank, then heavy weight low rep(5-6) large muscle group movement (bench press, squats, deadlifts). Benefits? Cons?
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/9/12 2:23 PM as a reply to edthompson1234.
Coachedthompson:

What are your thoughts on sprints, immediately followed by isometric holds like plank, then heavy weight low rep(5-6) large muscle group movement (bench press, squats, deadlifts). Benefits? Cons?


Think you're meant to focus on the big compound lifts first whilst you're still fresh for low reps... then you do assistance work, which can be dumbell moves, chin-ups, dips, etc. for more reps and some ab work like planks. You would either chuck in sprints after this or do them on a non-lifting day. But you probably wouldn't want to hit sprints on the day before a heavy leg focused day.... but I guess that's just common sense!
Report Post Report Post
?
RE: postworkout
11/11/12 11:15 AM as a reply to edthompson1234.
Coachedthompson:
I see what you're saying Paul. That is one of the reasons why I tested both forms of recovery personally. It's definately not a huge secret that different bodies work different ways, though. So my case may be isolated. So for me, liquid is the whey (see what I did there) to go.

It may. And there may be a real difference, one that as yet isn't there in hardcore science. And I don't make light of a placebo effect either, I mean we all feel more motivated if we feel like we're doing the 'right' thing.

Coachedthompson:
I see you as like a Bruce Lee of fitness. Funny I know.

Haha, now I've got to set my goals higher!

Coachedthompson:
You always seem to be picking apart workout programs not to say they are crap but take the best things you can find from them and make them yours. I can see how Jacob could take offense to your approach but I have read tons of your posts and know where your intentions lay.

Thanks Ed, I appreciate that. If you were inclined to go back through my posts, you'd find that my opinions about things have really changed over time. This is largely because I know a lot more and have done a lot more. I happen to be an MD, but my area of specialty is not and has never been anything that is directly related to this stuff, though I have a good sense of physiology (in general). Where this leaves me is that I have the background to read about what I'm doing at a bit beyond a layperson's level. But still, without a lot of experience, it's very easy to be intellectually 'seduced' by the stuff I've read most recently, just because I don't have expansive enough a perspective. Still, over time, I come to understand the evidence basis better and better. I really 'needed' the DVD-based programming at first. And the motivation from this was the most important thing. Now I've been doing this for a couple years, and I feel like I understand fitness programming a lot better than I used to. Believe it or not it helps me with patients too.

Coachedthompson:
What are your thoughts on sprints, immediately followed by isometric holds like plank, then heavy weight low rep(5-6) large muscle group movement (bench press, squats, deadlifts). Benefits? Cons?

I am very big on this kind of complex, though I'd do it in the reverse order (so that being fatigued doesn't get in the way of a very heavy lift). Famed coach Dan John has advocated doing heavy squats, followed by an all out sprint. In his amazing book "never let go" (which is really well written and gives about a billion workout suggestions) he discusses this.

I haven't done sprints right after a heavy squat set, but I have gone to do kettlebell swings. Actually more commonly I go straight from squats to plyo jumps. It's basically the same idea as PAP lower, but with a heavier load.

I think the key, though, is that you rest by doing a different exercise, not just by resting. So I've started doing more 'supersets' and 'giant sets' in my workouts.

For example yesterday I did squats x 5 reps, then chinups x 10 reps, then dips (from the chin tower) x 10 reps. Did the whole cycle 5 times. Then I went to a superset of standing barbell press alternating with one leg deadlifts. Then I did a superset of power cleans alternating with bulgarian squats. Then I did planks (feet elevated on a med ball like PAP upper) alternating with "Tony's Triangle" (from PAP Lower).

This worked pretty well, it was efficient in terms of time, and I was able to fit in some dedicated core work and dedicated hip mobility work. It's definitely a better metabolic conditioning workout to bundle the exercises, because your heart never really gets a chance to drop to a 'normal' rate.

Jacob83:
Paul I remember you from months ago in the P90X2 forums and Asylum as well. I noticed you have a very downward and negative opinion on a lot of the Beachbody programs. I haven't seen you say very many positive things about them at all in fact.

Put your Shakeology down for a minute, stop staring longingly at pictures of Dreya, and actually read what I've written in the past before launching into generalizations.

I am and have been VERY positive about P90X and P90X2. I think they're great. My only significant critique of P90X2 is that they oversold the science of PAP, which doesn't have much of a scientific track record as a training method. That's not a critique of the program, it's a critique of the marketing. I like Tai Cheng a great deal. I think Insanity and Asylum are appallingly bad programs, though I like some of the Asylum workouts individually. And I'm give or take about Body Beast. So there. I'm positive about some and negative about others. I would probably enjoy the Les Mills stuff, and I'd probably hate Yoga Booty Ballet and RevAbs.

Jacob83:
Although I'm interested to 'see' some of your results thus far.

Cool, dude, glad you're so interested in how I look -- but sorry, married. If that doesn't satisfy you we can thumb-wrestle or something. My thumb will kick your thumb's ass.
Report Post Report Post
?
Showing 1 - 20 of 23 results.
Items per Page
Page of 2