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Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
Showing 20 results.
Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
post workout meal building muscle recovery period amino acids muscle soreness protein synthesis energy stores health coach muscle cells strength increases can not complete workout becase of soreness high glycemic carbs muscle energy muscle protein breakdown
1/10/13 10:13 AM
Hi Beach Body Community!

In my 11+ years working in the fitness industry, once common complaint I get is that people are to sore from previous workout and therefore wonder if they should take a break or mention they can't do the next days workout. I have seen this alot lately on the BB message boards. So, I have decided to post some information to help you.

the process of building muscle works like this. When we exercise, we tear down our muscles. The recovery period is the rebuilding of the muscles. What differentiates the soreness from one person to another is the recovery period. For someone that exercise regularly, their soreness doesn't last as long or is not as severe due to muscle adaptation. The soreness is the result of tearing your muscles down.

How do I minimize soreness and speed up recovery?

Have a post workout meal or recovery drink within 30-45 min of workout. This will seed up recovery and reduce soreness. This is the most crucial part of any fitness program. During the first few hours of recovery, many exercise related genes are activated, which may be linked to repletion of muscle energy stores. If carb needs are ignored after training, you will diminish your training gains. By having a meal that has a combo of protein and carbs, you will reduce the muscle soreness. Consume high glycemic carbs and proteins in a 4:1 ratio. The timing is very important, because muscle cells are insulin receptive after exercise. Insulin is responsible for transporting glucose and amino acids into cells initiating glycogen and protein synthesis. Insulin also reduces muscle protein breakdown.

If you will incorporate a good post workout meal or recovery drink in your nutriton plan combined with enough of the right daily calories, you will notice a reduction in soreness, quicker muscle adaptation, quicker strength increases, and faster weight loss or muscle gain.

Let me know how this works for you!

In Health,
Coach Jeff
NASM Certified Personal Trainer
NASM Performance Enhancement Specialist
Team motivFIT
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/10/13 8:06 PM as a reply to CoachJeffMorgan.
I must say you really know your stuff and it was very well written. I certainly don't have a degree in nutrition nor the years as you do involving fitness, etc. but from the knowledge I've gained through my own personal research as well as current schooling I'm doing you definitely have some really useful information for people.

http://www.active.com/nutrition/Articles/Get_enough_protein_after_your_next_workout

The link above is a great article that definately covers the protein and carbs you went over as well as a lot of chemical break down and nutrition info for anyone who likes things really in depth. I'm a nerd but I'm obsessed, what can I say emoticon
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/10/13 8:33 PM as a reply to ebivey.
ebivey:
I must say you really know your stuff and it was very well written. I certainly don't have a degree in nutrition nor the years as you do involving fitness, etc. but from the knowledge I've gained through my own personal research as well as current schooling I'm doing you definitely have some really useful information for people.

http://www.active.com/nutrition/Articles/Get_enough_protein_after_your_next_workout

The link above is a great article that definately covers the protein and carbs you went over as well as a lot of chemical break down and nutrition info for anyone who likes things really in depth. I'm a nerd but I'm obsessed, what can I say emoticon


Great article! Thank for your sharing! All nerds are welcome here...lol
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/11/13 9:26 AM as a reply to CoachJeffMorgan.
Common problem. Simple solution. It all boils down to nutrition.
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/12/13 2:44 PM as a reply to CoachJeffMorgan.
motivFIT:
Hi Beach Body Community!

In my 11+ years working in the fitness industry, once common complaint I get is that people are to sore from previous workout and therefore wonder if they should take a break or mention they can't do the next days workout. I have seen this alot lately on the BB message boards. So, I have decided to post some information to help you.

the process of building muscle works like this. When we exercise, we tear down our muscles. The recovery period is the rebuilding of the muscles. What differentiates the soreness from one person to another is the recovery period. For someone that exercise regularly, their soreness doesn't last as long or is not as severe due to muscle adaptation. The soreness is the result of tearing your muscles down.

How do I minimize soreness and speed up recovery?

Have a post workout meal or recovery drink within 30-45 min of workout. This will seed up recovery and reduce soreness. This is the most crucial part of any fitness program. During the first few hours of recovery, many exercise related genes are activated, which may be linked to repletion of muscle energy stores. If carb needs are ignored after training, you will diminish your training gains. By having a meal that has a combo of protein and carbs, you will reduce the muscle soreness. Consume high glycemic carbs and proteins in a 4:1 ratio. The timing is very important, because muscle cells are insulin receptive after exercise. Insulin is responsible for transporting glucose and amino acids into cells initiating glycogen and protein synthesis. Insulin also reduces muscle protein breakdown.

If you will incorporate a good post workout meal or recovery drink in your nutriton plan combined with enough of the right daily calories, you will notice a reduction in soreness, quicker muscle adaptation, quicker strength increases, and faster weight loss or muscle gain.

Let me know how this works for you!

In Health,
Coach Jeff
NASM Certified Personal Trainer
NASM Performance Enhancement Specialist
Team motivFIT


Wow thanks. I never thought that eating was that important to help with soreness other than a glass of chocolate milk.
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/13/13 6:39 PM as a reply to rewolf.
You are welcome!
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/14/13 11:49 AM as a reply to CoachJeffMorgan.
motivFIT:
Hi Beach Body Community!

In my 11+ years working in the fitness industry, once common complaint I get is that people are to sore from previous workout and therefore wonder if they should take a break or mention they can't do the next days workout. I have seen this alot lately on the BB message boards. So, I have decided to post some information to help you.

the process of building muscle works like this. When we exercise, we tear down our muscles. The recovery period is the rebuilding of the muscles. What differentiates the soreness from one person to another is the recovery period. For someone that exercise regularly, their soreness doesn't last as long or is not as severe due to muscle adaptation. The soreness is the result of tearing your muscles down.

How do I minimize soreness and speed up recovery?

Have a post workout meal or recovery drink within 30-45 min of workout. This will seed up recovery and reduce soreness. This is the most crucial part of any fitness program. During the first few hours of recovery, many exercise related genes are activated, which may be linked to repletion of muscle energy stores. If carb needs are ignored after training, you will diminish your training gains. By having a meal that has a combo of protein and carbs, you will reduce the muscle soreness. Consume high glycemic carbs and proteins in a 4:1 ratio. The timing is very important, because muscle cells are insulin receptive after exercise. Insulin is responsible for transporting glucose and amino acids into cells initiating glycogen and protein synthesis. Insulin also reduces muscle protein breakdown.

If you will incorporate a good post workout meal or recovery drink in your nutriton plan combined with enough of the right daily calories, you will notice a reduction in soreness, quicker muscle adaptation, quicker strength increases, and faster weight loss or muscle gain.

Let me know how this works for you!

In Health,
Coach Jeff
NASM Certified Personal Trainer
NASM Performance Enhancement Specialist
Team motivFIT


I would like to see the science that backs up the bolded please.

In the meantime, what is your opinion on the following studies, that seem to imply that the recovery period you're referencing is actually closer to 24 hours than 45-60 minutes?

some muscle glycogen repletion may occur after prolonged, severe exercise even under fasting conditions

Enhanced amino acid sensitivity of myofibrillar protein synthesis persists for up to 24 h after resistance exercise in young men

The second study seems to make it pretty clear that the increased insulin sensitivity remains for at least 24 hours, which means timinig isn't nearly as critical for muscle repair. The only time this would be untrue is if a person were doing 2 workouts in the same day...in that case, I'd agree that the 45-60 minute post-workout timing would be rather critical.
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/14/13 12:01 PM as a reply to TheBandit27.
TheBandit27:
motivFIT:
Hi Beach Body Community!

In my 11+ years working in the fitness industry, once common complaint I get is that people are to sore from previous workout and therefore wonder if they should take a break or mention they can't do the next days workout. I have seen this alot lately on the BB message boards. So, I have decided to post some information to help you.

the process of building muscle works like this. When we exercise, we tear down our muscles. The recovery period is the rebuilding of the muscles. What differentiates the soreness from one person to another is the recovery period. For someone that exercise regularly, their soreness doesn't last as long or is not as severe due to muscle adaptation. The soreness is the result of tearing your muscles down.

How do I minimize soreness and speed up recovery?

Have a post workout meal or recovery drink within 30-45 min of workout. This will seed up recovery and reduce soreness. This is the most crucial part of any fitness program. During the first few hours of recovery, many exercise related genes are activated, which may be linked to repletion of muscle energy stores. If carb needs are ignored after training, you will diminish your training gains. By having a meal that has a combo of protein and carbs, you will reduce the muscle soreness. Consume high glycemic carbs and proteins in a 4:1 ratio. The timing is very important, because muscle cells are insulin receptive after exercise. Insulin is responsible for transporting glucose and amino acids into cells initiating glycogen and protein synthesis. Insulin also reduces muscle protein breakdown.

If you will incorporate a good post workout meal or recovery drink in your nutriton plan combined with enough of the right daily calories, you will notice a reduction in soreness, quicker muscle adaptation, quicker strength increases, and faster weight loss or muscle gain.

Let me know how this works for you!

In Health,
Coach Jeff
NASM Certified Personal Trainer
NASM Performance Enhancement Specialist
Team motivFIT


I would like to see the science that backs up the bolded please.

In the meantime, what is your opinion on the following studies, that seem to imply that the recovery period you're referencing is actually closer to 24 hours than 45-60 minutes?

some muscle glycogen repletion may occur after prolonged, severe exercise even under fasting conditions

Enhanced amino acid sensitivity of myofibrillar protein synthesis persists for up to 24 h after resistance exercise in young men

The second study seems to make it pretty clear that the increased insulin sensitivity remains for at least 24 hours, which means timinig isn't nearly as critical for muscle repair. The only time this would be untrue is if a person were doing 2 workouts in the same day...in that case, I'd agree that the 45-60 minute post-workout timing would be rather critical.


Pick up an NASM Performance Enhancement Specialist text book and you will find it under Performance Nutrition and it's backed with scientific evidence.

Also, the links you posted are bad links
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/14/13 1:39 PM as a reply to CoachJeffMorgan.
motivFIT:
TheBandit27:
motivFIT:
Hi Beach Body Community!

In my 11+ years working in the fitness industry, once common complaint I get is that people are to sore from previous workout and therefore wonder if they should take a break or mention they can't do the next days workout. I have seen this alot lately on the BB message boards. So, I have decided to post some information to help you.

the process of building muscle works like this. When we exercise, we tear down our muscles. The recovery period is the rebuilding of the muscles. What differentiates the soreness from one person to another is the recovery period. For someone that exercise regularly, their soreness doesn't last as long or is not as severe due to muscle adaptation. The soreness is the result of tearing your muscles down.

How do I minimize soreness and speed up recovery?

Have a post workout meal or recovery drink within 30-45 min of workout. This will seed up recovery and reduce soreness. This is the most crucial part of any fitness program. During the first few hours of recovery, many exercise related genes are activated, which may be linked to repletion of muscle energy stores. If carb needs are ignored after training, you will diminish your training gains. By having a meal that has a combo of protein and carbs, you will reduce the muscle soreness. Consume high glycemic carbs and proteins in a 4:1 ratio. The timing is very important, because muscle cells are insulin receptive after exercise. Insulin is responsible for transporting glucose and amino acids into cells initiating glycogen and protein synthesis. Insulin also reduces muscle protein breakdown.

If you will incorporate a good post workout meal or recovery drink in your nutriton plan combined with enough of the right daily calories, you will notice a reduction in soreness, quicker muscle adaptation, quicker strength increases, and faster weight loss or muscle gain.

Let me know how this works for you!

In Health,
Coach Jeff
NASM Certified Personal Trainer
NASM Performance Enhancement Specialist
Team motivFIT


I would like to see the science that backs up the bolded please.

In the meantime, what is your opinion on the following studies, that seem to imply that the recovery period you're referencing is actually closer to 24 hours than 45-60 minutes?

some muscle glycogen repletion may occur after prolonged, severe exercise even under fasting conditions

Enhanced amino acid sensitivity of myofibrillar protein synthesis persists for up to 24 h after resistance exercise in young men

The second study seems to make it pretty clear that the increased insulin sensitivity remains for at least 24 hours, which means timinig isn't nearly as critical for muscle repair. The only time this would be untrue is if a person were doing 2 workouts in the same day...in that case, I'd agree that the 45-60 minute post-workout timing would be rather critical.


Pick up an NASM Performance Enhancement Specialist text book and you will find it under Performance Nutrition and it's backed with scientific evidence.

Also, the links you posted are bad links


If it's all the same to you, I'd prefer to read the science online, since I'm sure the studies are published (that way I don't have to buy the book). The only thing I've seen that suggests what you're saying is the vaunted Nutrient Timing study, which indicats that the recovery period you speak of ranges from 30 minutes to 3 hours; that study was--again--done for performance athletes who do more than 1 workout per day (as I indicated above). Here's the link and URL for that one:

Nutrient Timing

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575187/?tool=pubmed

I quote:

Post-exercise ingestion (immediately to 3 h post) of amino acids, primarily essential amino acids, has been shown to stimulate robust increases in muscle protein synthesis, while the addition of CHO may stimulate even greater levels of protein synthesis

The problem here is that it's only short-term, and may actually inhibit protein synthesis over the ensuing 12 hour period. The study that I linked to before explains what I'm talking about.

Also, the links seem to work just fine for me, but just in case it doesn't work for you, here are the URLs:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/705238?dopt=Abstract

Looking forward to your thoughts (and science)...thanks.

EDIT:

I also found a study titled "Carbohydrate-protein drinks do not enhance recovery from exercise-induced muscle injury." Here's the link:

Carbohydrate-protein drinks do not enhance recovery from exercise-induced muscle injury

And here's the URL:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18272930

Have a good one.
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/14/13 2:52 PM as a reply to TheBandit27.
TheBandit27:
motivFIT:
TheBandit27:
motivFIT:
Hi Beach Body Community!

In my 11+ years working in the fitness industry, once common complaint I get is that people are to sore from previous workout and therefore wonder if they should take a break or mention they can't do the next days workout. I have seen this alot lately on the BB message boards. So, I have decided to post some information to help you.

the process of building muscle works like this. When we exercise, we tear down our muscles. The recovery period is the rebuilding of the muscles. What differentiates the soreness from one person to another is the recovery period. For someone that exercise regularly, their soreness doesn't last as long or is not as severe due to muscle adaptation. The soreness is the result of tearing your muscles down.

How do I minimize soreness and speed up recovery?

Have a post workout meal or recovery drink within 30-45 min of workout. This will seed up recovery and reduce soreness. This is the most crucial part of any fitness program. During the first few hours of recovery, many exercise related genes are activated, which may be linked to repletion of muscle energy stores. If carb needs are ignored after training, you will diminish your training gains. By having a meal that has a combo of protein and carbs, you will reduce the muscle soreness. Consume high glycemic carbs and proteins in a 4:1 ratio. The timing is very important, because muscle cells are insulin receptive after exercise. Insulin is responsible for transporting glucose and amino acids into cells initiating glycogen and protein synthesis. Insulin also reduces muscle protein breakdown.

If you will incorporate a good post workout meal or recovery drink in your nutriton plan combined with enough of the right daily calories, you will notice a reduction in soreness, quicker muscle adaptation, quicker strength increases, and faster weight loss or muscle gain.

Let me know how this works for you!

In Health,
Coach Jeff
NASM Certified Personal Trainer
NASM Performance Enhancement Specialist
Team motivFIT


I would like to see the science that backs up the bolded please.

In the meantime, what is your opinion on the following studies, that seem to imply that the recovery period you're referencing is actually closer to 24 hours than 45-60 minutes?

some muscle glycogen repletion may occur after prolonged, severe exercise even under fasting conditions

Enhanced amino acid sensitivity of myofibrillar protein synthesis persists for up to 24 h after resistance exercise in young men

The second study seems to make it pretty clear that the increased insulin sensitivity remains for at least 24 hours, which means timinig isn't nearly as critical for muscle repair. The only time this would be untrue is if a person were doing 2 workouts in the same day...in that case, I'd agree that the 45-60 minute post-workout timing would be rather critical.


Pick up an NASM Performance Enhancement Specialist text book and you will find it under Performance Nutrition and it's backed with scientific evidence.

Also, the links you posted are bad links


If it's all the same to you, I'd prefer to read the science online, since I'm sure the studies are published (that way I don't have to buy the book). The only thing I've seen that suggests what you're saying is the vaunted Nutrient Timing study, which indicats that the recovery period you speak of ranges from 30 minutes to 3 hours; that study was--again--done for performance athletes who do more than 1 workout per day (as I indicated above). Here's the link and URL for that one:

Nutrient Timing

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575187/?tool=pubmed

I quote:

Post-exercise ingestion (immediately to 3 h post) of amino acids, primarily essential amino acids, has been shown to stimulate robust increases in muscle protein synthesis, while the addition of CHO may stimulate even greater levels of protein synthesis

The problem here is that it's only short-term, and may actually inhibit protein synthesis over the ensuing 12 hour period. The study that I linked to before explains what I'm talking about.

Also, the links seem to work just fine for me, but just in case it doesn't work for you, here are the URLs:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/705238?dopt=Abstract

Looking forward to your thoughts (and science)...thanks.

EDIT:

I also found a study titled "Carbohydrate-protein drinks do not enhance recovery from exercise-induced muscle injury." Here's the link:

Carbohydrate-protein drinks do not enhance recovery from exercise-induced muscle injury

And here's the URL:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18272930

Have a good one.


Sorry, I don't know what else to tell you. The National Academy of Sports Medicine(NASM),Performance Enhancement Specialist is an advanced Certification from the most recognized Fitness Certification body in the USA. This is what they teach in their text book under Sports Performance Nutrition. You can believe it or not. I don't really care. I for one know that they are correct, from personal experience and from the 100's of client testimonials I have received over the years.
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/14/13 3:00 PM as a reply to CoachJeffMorgan.
If we are going from anecdotal evidence, then I'm inclined to agree with Bandit's science.

I currently train fasted at 5:30 am and then don't eat lunch until 11:00 am. In between this time 20g BCAA's are ingested and that is it. This means no carbs whatsoever. I have seen no ill effects from this and in fact I'm not sore at all from my workouts, which consist of compound movements.

I had used the P90X recovery drink immediately after workouts for two years and I can say without a doubt that I see no difference in recovery with or without a carb drink.
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/14/13 3:50 PM as a reply to mikec8785.
mikec8785:
If we are going from anecdotal evidence, then I'm inclined to agree with Bandit's science.

I currently train fasted at 5:30 am and then don't eat lunch until 11:00 am. In between this time 20g BCAA's are ingested and that is it. This means no carbs whatsoever. I have seen no ill effects from this and in fact I'm not sore at all from my workouts, which consist of compound movements.

I had used the P90X recovery drink immediately after workouts for two years and I can say without a doubt that I see no difference in recovery with or without a carb drink.


If that works for you then great! I couldn't imagine working out on an empty stomach and fasting for 12 hours.

Here's a resource for this above mentioned that you guys are looking for. I also took the liberty of using your scientific database website. Enjoy!

Glesson M, Lancaster GI, Bishop NC. Nutritional Srategies to minimize exercise-induced immunosuppression in athletes. Can jAppl Physiol 2001; 26 (suppl):s23-35
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11897880

Hawley JA, Tipton KD, Millard-Staford ML. Promoting training adaptations through nutritional interventions. J Sports Sci 2006;24(7):709-21
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16766500

Ivy J, Portman R. Nutrient Timing. New York: Basic Health; 2004
Nutrient Timing

Houston ME. Gaining Weight: the scientific basis for increasing skeletal muscle mass. Can J Appl Physiol 1999;24(4):305-16
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10470448
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/15/13 6:00 AM as a reply to CoachJeffMorgan.
motivFIT:
mikec8785:
If we are going from anecdotal evidence, then I'm inclined to agree with Bandit's science.

I currently train fasted at 5:30 am and then don't eat lunch until 11:00 am. In between this time 20g BCAA's are ingested and that is it. This means no carbs whatsoever. I have seen no ill effects from this and in fact I'm not sore at all from my workouts, which consist of compound movements.

I had used the P90X recovery drink immediately after workouts for two years and I can say without a doubt that I see no difference in recovery with or without a carb drink.


If that works for you then great! I couldn't imagine working out on an empty stomach and fasting for 12 hours.

Here's a resource for this above mentioned that you guys are looking for. I also took the liberty of using your scientific database website. Enjoy!

Glesson M, Lancaster GI, Bishop NC. Nutritional Srategies to minimize exercise-induced immunosuppression in athletes. Can jAppl Physiol 2001; 26 (suppl):s23-35
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11897880

Hawley JA, Tipton KD, Millard-Staford ML. Promoting training adaptations through nutritional interventions. J Sports Sci 2006;24(7):709-21
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16766500

Ivy J, Portman R. Nutrient Timing. New York: Basic Health; 2004
Nutrient Timing

Houston ME. Gaining Weight: the scientific basis for increasing skeletal muscle mass. Can J Appl Physiol 1999;24(4):305-16
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10470448


Thanks for taking the time to post some info...makes it much easier to evaluate.

Anecdotally, I agree with Mike that I've seen my best results training fasted first thing in the AM. Most of the time, I also don't eat until a few hours later...not for any reason other than it's what works for me.

The first link speaks to nothing of muscle or glycogen recovery (which I understood to be the central thesis of your post...sorry if I misunderstood), but rather that missing certain vitamins and nutrients ("Dietary deficiencies of protein and specific micronutrients") can result in the body suffering immune system suppression during extended bouts of non-fatigue induced exercise in a glycogen-depleted state. That's very good information, but in my opinion is more applicable for someone who's going to be walking a bunch of miles without eating anything rather than doing a P90X or Insanity workout.

Your second link is a cumulative review of a bunch of papers; no actual trials included. However, 2 points of the summary stuck out to me:

As nutrient stores (i.e. muscle and liver glycogen) play a predominant role in the performance of prolonged, intense, intermittent exercise typical of the patterns of soccer match-play, and in the replenishment of energy reserves for subsequent training sessions, the extent to which acutely altering substrate availability might modify the training impulse has been a key research area among exercise physiologists and sport nutritionists for several decades

The bolded above is talking about multiple training sessions, which is the case in which I said that carb intake was critical, so it looks like we're on the same page there.

the activation of several major signalling pathways important for chronic training adaptations take place during the first few hours of recovery, returning to baseline values within 24 h after exercise

Again, we're talking hours here, not minutes, which is what prompted my original post in this thread. The "window of opportunity" is much, much larger than I think most people believe.

I discussed the third link in detail in my last post...good study, just not exactly applicable to what most of us here are doing...more for professional athletes or sprint-style trainees that do multiple sessions in a single day.

The fourth link basically says verbatim exactly what I expressed originally, which is that the recovery period lasts at least 24 hours (although your link says 48). Here's the text:

Most athletes today tend to have a larger muscle mass than their predecessors. Better training and nutrition practices are responsible for much of this difference, but whatever the mechanism, the balance between muscle protein synthesis and breakdown must be in favor of increased muscle protein. Applying new techniques for measuring whole body and muscle protein synthesis to resistance exercise has led to some interesting results. In the recovery period following resistance exercise, both muscle protein synthesis and breakdown are accelerated in the fasted state. Ingestion of carbohydrate or carbohydrate and protein during recovery further increases muscle protein synthesis, due in part to an improved anabolic hormone environment. In addition, the anabolic effect of a resistance training bout may last well beyond 48 hours. Using information obtained from research studies, better training and dietary practices can optimize the benefits from resistance training.

So it looks like your research agrees with what I've said, at least on the surface (I don't really have time at the moment to read the full text of each of the links...perhaps I'll get to it some time in the next few days). I really only pointed it out because I want to make sure people get the right information. I used to stress about the "window of opportunity" and what would happen if I didn't get the exact 4:1 ratio within exactly 30 minutes etc. Turns out it's just not critical...in fact, for most of us, it's not even necessary; perhaps slightly advantageous in some scenarios is all.

Thanks for the discussion...all the best to you.
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/15/13 9:01 AM as a reply to TheBandit27.
TheBandit27:
motivFIT:
mikec8785:
If we are going from anecdotal evidence, then I'm inclined to agree with Bandit's science.

I currently train fasted at 5:30 am and then don't eat lunch until 11:00 am. In between this time 20g BCAA's are ingested and that is it. This means no carbs whatsoever. I have seen no ill effects from this and in fact I'm not sore at all from my workouts, which consist of compound movements.

I had used the P90X recovery drink immediately after workouts for two years and I can say without a doubt that I see no difference in recovery with or without a carb drink.


If that works for you then great! I couldn't imagine working out on an empty stomach and fasting for 12 hours.

Here's a resource for this above mentioned that you guys are looking for. I also took the liberty of using your scientific database website. Enjoy!

Glesson M, Lancaster GI, Bishop NC. Nutritional Srategies to minimize exercise-induced immunosuppression in athletes. Can jAppl Physiol 2001; 26 (suppl):s23-35
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11897880

Hawley JA, Tipton KD, Millard-Staford ML. Promoting training adaptations through nutritional interventions. J Sports Sci 2006;24(7):709-21
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16766500

Ivy J, Portman R. Nutrient Timing. New York: Basic Health; 2004
Nutrient Timing

Houston ME. Gaining Weight: the scientific basis for increasing skeletal muscle mass. Can J Appl Physiol 1999;24(4):305-16
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10470448


Thanks for taking the time to post some info...makes it much easier to evaluate.

Anecdotally, I agree with Mike that I've seen my best results training fasted first thing in the AM. Most of the time, I also don't eat until a few hours later...not for any reason other than it's what works for me.

The first link speaks to nothing of muscle or glycogen recovery (which I understood to be the central thesis of your post...sorry if I misunderstood), but rather that missing certain vitamins and nutrients ("Dietary deficiencies of protein and specific micronutrients") can result in the body suffering immune system suppression during extended bouts of non-fatigue induced exercise in a glycogen-depleted state. That's very good information, but in my opinion is more applicable for someone who's going to be walking a bunch of miles without eating anything rather than doing a P90X or Insanity workout.

Your second link is a cumulative review of a bunch of papers; no actual trials included. However, 2 points of the summary stuck out to me:

As nutrient stores (i.e. muscle and liver glycogen) play a predominant role in the performance of prolonged, intense, intermittent exercise typical of the patterns of soccer match-play, and in the replenishment of energy reserves for subsequent training sessions, the extent to which acutely altering substrate availability might modify the training impulse has been a key research area among exercise physiologists and sport nutritionists for several decades

The bolded above is talking about multiple training sessions, which is the case in which I said that carb intake was critical, so it looks like we're on the same page there.

the activation of several major signalling pathways important for chronic training adaptations take place during the first few hours of recovery, returning to baseline values within 24 h after exercise

Again, we're talking hours here, not minutes, which is what prompted my original post in this thread. The "window of opportunity" is much, much larger than I think most people believe.

I discussed the third link in detail in my last post...good study, just not exactly applicable to what most of us here are doing...more for professional athletes or sprint-style trainees that do multiple sessions in a single day.

The fourth link basically says verbatim exactly what I expressed originally, which is that the recovery period lasts at least 24 hours (although your link says 48). Here's the text:

Most athletes today tend to have a larger muscle mass than their predecessors. Better training and nutrition practices are responsible for much of this difference, but whatever the mechanism, the balance between muscle protein synthesis and breakdown must be in favor of increased muscle protein. Applying new techniques for measuring whole body and muscle protein synthesis to resistance exercise has led to some interesting results. In the recovery period following resistance exercise, both muscle protein synthesis and breakdown are accelerated in the fasted state. Ingestion of carbohydrate or carbohydrate and protein during recovery further increases muscle protein synthesis, due in part to an improved anabolic hormone environment. In addition, the anabolic effect of a resistance training bout may last well beyond 48 hours. Using information obtained from research studies, better training and dietary practices can optimize the benefits from resistance training.

So it looks like your research agrees with what I've said, at least on the surface (I don't really have time at the moment to read the full text of each of the links...perhaps I'll get to it some time in the next few days). I really only pointed it out because I want to make sure people get the right information. I used to stress about the "window of opportunity" and what would happen if I didn't get the exact 4:1 ratio within exactly 30 minutes etc. Turns out it's just not critical...in fact, for most of us, it's not even necessary; perhaps slightly advantageous in some scenarios is all.

Thanks for the discussion...all the best to you.


Dude, the bottom line here is I'm sharing the exact information that NASM has printed in their text book and have referenced it. If you don't agree then you don't agree No one is forcing you to agree and it's not my goal to make sure I'm right. I'm simply the messenger, providing information that I have learned while receiving my Sports Enhancement Specialist Certification. It's obvious you must have a Masters or PHD in Sports Physiology with all of your knowledge or maybe with all the research you have done to this point, you could have a acquired one. Better time might be spent starting your own post and trying to convenience people to never eat before and after their workouts. I imagine with all of that knowledge, you must have a very successful fitness company. Anyways, best of luck to you.
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/15/13 11:28 AM as a reply to CoachJeffMorgan.
I think the point Bandit is trying to make is that just because something is taught in a program doesn't make it true, or applicable to all populations. Bandit analyzed the sources you cited, provided by the textbook, and they may be applicable to high performance athletes that train multiple times per day. However, these studies do not (likely) apply to the population doing a Beachbody program.

In the context of P90X, Insanity, etc., it's likely not necessary to ingest a recovery drink or high GI meal immediately after a workout. In fact, just eating regularly scheduled meals should provide the same benefit.
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/15/13 11:50 AM as a reply to mikec8785.
mikec8785:
I think the point Bandit is trying to make is that just because something is taught in a program doesn't make it true, or applicable to all populations. Bandit analyzed the sources you cited, provided by the textbook, and they may be applicable to high performance athletes that train multiple times per day. However, these studies do not (likely) apply to the population doing a Beachbody program.

In the context of P90X, Insanity, etc., it's likely not necessary to ingest a recovery drink or high GI meal immediately after a workout. In fact, just eating regularly scheduled meals should provide the same benefit.


Thanks Mike.

Although I thought that I made my point pretty obvious, perhaps it did appear as though I was trying to ruffle feathers.

I hope it did not come off that way, as I simply wanted to clarify what I felt was a misunderstanding.

Cheers.
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/15/13 11:52 AM as a reply to mikec8785.
mikec8785:
I think the point Bandit is trying to make is that just because something is taught in a program doesn't make it true, or applicable to all populations. Bandit analyzed the sources you cited, provided by the textbook, and they may be applicable to high performance athletes that train multiple times per day. However, these studies do not (likely) apply to the population doing a Beachbody program.

In the context of P90X, Insanity, etc., it's likely not necessary to ingest a recovery drink or high GI meal immediately after a workout. In fact, just eating regularly scheduled meals should provide the same benefit.


Actually they do apply to these programs. When doing any form of high-intensity training, especially a program like Insanity. Insanity is comparable to the type of training a high performance athlete receives. So, I wholeheartedly disagree with you both! I'm not sure how many athletes you guys work with, but I have been coaching this type of high-intensity training outdoors before Insanity existed, so now it's the same as Performance Training. If you goal in life is to go around and try ans discredit everyone in beachbody, move on. If you guys believe so strong in your " research" then I would recommend you start a post on the boards so that you can teach everyone about your principals.

We can sit here all day and try an convince each other that their way is correct. If you disagree, great! To be honest, I'm tired of having to respond to you guys, because it's taking time way form those people that I could be helping. So, please move on and best of luck to you!
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/15/13 11:57 AM as a reply to TheBandit27.
TheBandit27:
mikec8785:
I think the point Bandit is trying to make is that just because something is taught in a program doesn't make it true, or applicable to all populations. Bandit analyzed the sources you cited, provided by the textbook, and they may be applicable to high performance athletes that train multiple times per day. However, these studies do not (likely) apply to the population doing a Beachbody program.

In the context of P90X, Insanity, etc., it's likely not necessary to ingest a recovery drink or high GI meal immediately after a workout. In fact, just eating regularly scheduled meals should provide the same benefit.


Thanks Mike.

Although I thought that I made my point pretty obvious, perhaps it did appear as though I was trying to ruffle feathers.

I hope it did not come off that way, as I simply wanted to clarify what I felt was a misunderstanding.

Cheers.


It did come off that way, as you obviously subscribe to a different training philosophy than all of the Performance Enhancement Specialists that have graduated from NASM. Misunderstanding? No. Different believe systems? Yes
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/15/13 11:57 AM as a reply to CoachJeffMorgan.
motivFIT:
TheBandit27:
motivFIT:
mikec8785:
If we are going from anecdotal evidence, then I'm inclined to agree with Bandit's science.

I currently train fasted at 5:30 am and then don't eat lunch until 11:00 am. In between this time 20g BCAA's are ingested and that is it. This means no carbs whatsoever. I have seen no ill effects from this and in fact I'm not sore at all from my workouts, which consist of compound movements.

I had used the P90X recovery drink immediately after workouts for two years and I can say without a doubt that I see no difference in recovery with or without a carb drink.


If that works for you then great! I couldn't imagine working out on an empty stomach and fasting for 12 hours.

Here's a resource for this above mentioned that you guys are looking for. I also took the liberty of using your scientific database website. Enjoy!

Glesson M, Lancaster GI, Bishop NC. Nutritional Srategies to minimize exercise-induced immunosuppression in athletes. Can jAppl Physiol 2001; 26 (suppl):s23-35
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11897880

Hawley JA, Tipton KD, Millard-Staford ML. Promoting training adaptations through nutritional interventions. J Sports Sci 2006;24(7):709-21
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16766500

Ivy J, Portman R. Nutrient Timing. New York: Basic Health; 2004
Nutrient Timing

Houston ME. Gaining Weight: the scientific basis for increasing skeletal muscle mass. Can J Appl Physiol 1999;24(4):305-16
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10470448


Thanks for taking the time to post some info...makes it much easier to evaluate.

Anecdotally, I agree with Mike that I've seen my best results training fasted first thing in the AM. Most of the time, I also don't eat until a few hours later...not for any reason other than it's what works for me.

The first link speaks to nothing of muscle or glycogen recovery (which I understood to be the central thesis of your post...sorry if I misunderstood), but rather that missing certain vitamins and nutrients ("Dietary deficiencies of protein and specific micronutrients") can result in the body suffering immune system suppression during extended bouts of non-fatigue induced exercise in a glycogen-depleted state. That's very good information, but in my opinion is more applicable for someone who's going to be walking a bunch of miles without eating anything rather than doing a P90X or Insanity workout.

Your second link is a cumulative review of a bunch of papers; no actual trials included. However, 2 points of the summary stuck out to me:

As nutrient stores (i.e. muscle and liver glycogen) play a predominant role in the performance of prolonged, intense, intermittent exercise typical of the patterns of soccer match-play, and in the replenishment of energy reserves for subsequent training sessions, the extent to which acutely altering substrate availability might modify the training impulse has been a key research area among exercise physiologists and sport nutritionists for several decades

The bolded above is talking about multiple training sessions, which is the case in which I said that carb intake was critical, so it looks like we're on the same page there.

the activation of several major signalling pathways important for chronic training adaptations take place during the first few hours of recovery, returning to baseline values within 24 h after exercise

Again, we're talking hours here, not minutes, which is what prompted my original post in this thread. The "window of opportunity" is much, much larger than I think most people believe.

I discussed the third link in detail in my last post...good study, just not exactly applicable to what most of us here are doing...more for professional athletes or sprint-style trainees that do multiple sessions in a single day.

The fourth link basically says verbatim exactly what I expressed originally, which is that the recovery period lasts at least 24 hours (although your link says 48). Here's the text:

Most athletes today tend to have a larger muscle mass than their predecessors. Better training and nutrition practices are responsible for much of this difference, but whatever the mechanism, the balance between muscle protein synthesis and breakdown must be in favor of increased muscle protein. Applying new techniques for measuring whole body and muscle protein synthesis to resistance exercise has led to some interesting results. In the recovery period following resistance exercise, both muscle protein synthesis and breakdown are accelerated in the fasted state. Ingestion of carbohydrate or carbohydrate and protein during recovery further increases muscle protein synthesis, due in part to an improved anabolic hormone environment. In addition, the anabolic effect of a resistance training bout may last well beyond 48 hours. Using information obtained from research studies, better training and dietary practices can optimize the benefits from resistance training.

So it looks like your research agrees with what I've said, at least on the surface (I don't really have time at the moment to read the full text of each of the links...perhaps I'll get to it some time in the next few days). I really only pointed it out because I want to make sure people get the right information. I used to stress about the "window of opportunity" and what would happen if I didn't get the exact 4:1 ratio within exactly 30 minutes etc. Turns out it's just not critical...in fact, for most of us, it's not even necessary; perhaps slightly advantageous in some scenarios is all.

Thanks for the discussion...all the best to you.


Dude, the bottom line here is I'm sharing the exact information that NASM has printed in their text book and have referenced it. If you don't agree then you don't agree No one is forcing you to agree and it's not my goal to make sure I'm right. I'm simply the messenger, providing information that I have learned while receiving my Sports Enhancement Specialist Certification. It's obvious you must have a Masters or PHD in Sports Physiology with all of your knowledge or maybe with all the research you have done to this point, you could have a acquired one. Better time might be spent starting your own post and trying to convenience people to never eat before and after their workouts. I imagine with all of that knowledge, you must have a very successful fitness company. Anyways, best of luck to you.


There's no need to cast aspersions or take it personally, as I'm simply trying to ensure that what I've gleaned from my research hasn't been superceded by other work. This is why I asked for the references to what you stated in your original post.

Also, I don't remember telling people never to eat before or after their workouts; the only issue I ever took with your post was that the central thesis of your post didn't really apply to the style of training promoted here (I also offered a clarification as to when it would apply, so as not to imply that you were altogether incorrect). I then asked for your opinion on the information I had. In re-reading that request, I do not see how/why it could have been viewed as adversarial, but if you received it that way, then you have my apologies.

Regardless, I've laid out the information I feel is pertinent to the topic, so I'll now move on.

Have a good one.
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RE: Are you to sore and can't get through your workouts?
1/15/13 12:04 PM as a reply to CoachJeffMorgan.
motivFIT:
mikec8785:
I think the point Bandit is trying to make is that just because something is taught in a program doesn't make it true, or applicable to all populations. Bandit analyzed the sources you cited, provided by the textbook, and they may be applicable to high performance athletes that train multiple times per day. However, these studies do not (likely) apply to the population doing a Beachbody program.

In the context of P90X, Insanity, etc., it's likely not necessary to ingest a recovery drink or high GI meal immediately after a workout. In fact, just eating regularly scheduled meals should provide the same benefit.


Actually they do apply to these programs. When doing any form of high-intensity training, especially a program like Insanity. Insanity is comparable to the type of training a high performance athlete receives. So, I wholeheartedly disagree with you both! I'm not sure how many athletes you guys work with, but I have been coaching this type of high-intensity training outdoors before Insanity existed, so now it's the same as Performance Training. If you goal in life is to go around and try ans discredit everyone in beachbody, move on. If you guys believe so strong in your " research" then I would recommend you start a post on the boards so that you can teach everyone about your principals.

We can sit here all day and try an convince each other that their way is correct. If you disagree, great! To be honest, I'm tired of having to respond to you guys, because it's taking time way form those people that I could be helping. So, please move on and best of luck to you!


Again, I'm not sure how you could take my opinion as trying to discredit everyone in beachbody, as opposed to clarifying a misconception. However, as I said, I will move on.

Best of luck, and do feel free to PM me any information that you find that discredits the research I've found. Even though I try to keep current on the human performance field, I am aware that I don't get all the information that's out there and strive to be open minded.

Have a nice day.
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