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Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
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I've been lifting high volume sets, low volume, heavy, light, curcuit, split, double split, basically any way there is to lift other then hardcore powerlifting ever since highschool (with year or two breaks here and there lol).

Don't get me wrong, I find the lifting in p90x to be challenging and quite grueling. To be honest, probably the biggest reason i go to the gym on top of p90x is because going to the gym is pretty much all i do other then go to work.

I have a beach body coach telling me this is too much. I don't know, i did it on top of insanity and aslyum but obviously thats a different form of training.

Honestly don't feel as tho its going to have a negative impact on my results.

wondering what others think about this and thier experince with it. Considering taking the recovery week off of gym lifting.
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/15/13 12:46 PM as a reply to PFaux.
I guess the first question, I would have is timing of your workouts. Are you doing P90X in the morning and then gym at night? Or is it all at one time, where you might do P90X after work and then head right to the gym?
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/15/13 12:51 PM as a reply to PFaux.
In short, the answer is....."it depends".

Are you sticking with the same muscle groups at the gym that you did the same day at home using P90X? Are you giving your muscles enough rest to recover? If the answer is "no" for either of thoses, then yes, it's too much.

Sometimes I need a little "extra" from the DVD I completed on a given day, but I don't get crazy with it either.

Hope that helps. If you have more questions, feel free to send me a message emoticon

Stephanie
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/15/13 1:09 PM as a reply to mbruno54.
mbruno54:
I guess the first question, I would have is timing of your workouts. Are you doing P90X in the morning and then gym at night? Or is it all at one time, where you might do P90X after work and then head right to the gym?


i get one to three hours between workouts
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/15/13 1:12 PM as a reply to CoachStephanieH.
CoachStephanieH:
In short, the answer is....."it depends".

Are you sticking with the same muscle groups at the gym that you did the same day at home using P90X? Are you giving your muscles enough rest to recover? If the answer is "no" for either of thoses, then yes, it's too much.

Sometimes I need a little "extra" from the DVD I completed on a given day, but I don't get crazy with it either.

Hope that helps. If you have more questions, feel free to send me a message emoticon

Stephanie


its a little tricky schedueling. I'll always do the same muscle groups, but try to scheduel it so i'm hitting everything twice a week, with at least one day of rest. and if i only get one day of rest, i only do like one exercise 3 sets.

i'll do 18 sets total post p90x with at least 12 of them being the muscle groups i used that day in p90x
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/15/13 1:18 PM as a reply to PFaux.
i guess i don't have to ask if you think i should take the recovery week off from the gym lol.

perhaps a better question would be 'what are some signs of overtraining i should watch out for?"
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/15/13 1:18 PM as a reply to PFaux.
i guess i don't have to ask if you think i should take the recovery week off from the gym lol.

perhaps a better question would be 'what are some signs of overtraining i should watch out for?"
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/16/13 5:24 AM as a reply to PFaux.
In the end it's your decision on what you are going to do, but the thing with fitness is that more is not always better.

This is just my opinion, if you want to go to the gym and lift weights along with P90X, and you're taking a couple hours between each routine, then I would not work the same muscle groups on the same day. You're already tearing the muscle down with P90X and they need the time to recover. By working the same muscles a 2nd time in the same day, I don't think you're allowing for enough recovery time.

I think the schedule you're trying to keep will eventually lead to overtraining. Some of the physical symptons to watch for include losing your appetite, insomnia, increased incidence of respiratory infections, injury, and fatigue. In addition to the physcial symptons there are also physcological symptons which can include depression, changes in mood and feelings of worthlessness, or be constantly preoccupied with thoughts about your workout or athletic performance.

If you truly want to try and do P90X along with gym visits, I might try one of the following. My first option would be just do P90X at the gym or use the gym for cardio only so that you're basically doing P90X Doubles.
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/16/13 7:23 AM as a reply to PFaux.
If you want to be strong, then weightlifting is going to be way better than P90X. Not even close. If you want a balance of muscle size, conditioning, and weight loss, then the P90X stuff is better.

If I were to try and combine the two, I would probably do the following:

Once or twice a week do a lifting routine with squats, deadlifts, and either overhead press and bench press. If you do like 5x5 with squats and deadlifts, then honestly there would be no reason to ever do the legs part of Legs & Back.

I might only do half (if any) of the arm/shoulder workouts in P90X.

I'd definitely keep plyo, kenpo, and yoga. I think the back workouts in P90X are great, and part of this is because horizontal and vertical pulling can be high volume -- it doesn't depend so much on heavy low rep stuff.

You could conceivably have a schedule like this:

1) Lifting day -- 5x3 squats, 5x1 deadlifts, 5x3 press
2) Kenpo
3) Chest & Back
4) Plyo
5) Lifting day -- 5x3 squats, 5x1 deadlifts, 5x3 bench
6) Yoga

This would give you a lot of the conditioning work from P90X, cut out some redundancy with lifting, and allow you to train strength at the same time.
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/16/13 9:44 AM as a reply to PFaux.
PFaux:
i guess i don't have to ask if you think i should take the recovery week off from the gym lol.

perhaps a better question would be 'what are some signs of overtraining i should watch out for?"


mbruno54 has it dead on. Over training can take a very long time to recover from. "More" definately isn't always best. I hit that bonk stage when doing X2 because I was also training for my first Half Marathon. Luckily I caught it in time and didn't lose too much progression.

Look for that balance and make the MOST of your primary workout.
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/17/13 12:47 AM as a reply to PFaux.
There are a thoughts I'd like to add here:

1) If you are ready to hit the gym again after a P90X workout, you didn't push hard enough, IMHO. let's take Chest & Back for example: If you come away from that less than 100% gassed, you didn't do enough push ups or pull ups, or your weights weren't high enough on the lifts. I've gotten as high as 460 push ups in that workout, and I promise you I wasn't going to do anything involving picking up something heavy later that day.

2) As others have said, more is NOT better. Body Beast really makes a point of this. Part of the new science in bodybuilding has shown that muscle growth occurs in men partially in conjunction with testosterone increase. According to "The Book of Beast," the optimum time for working out per day to increase your T-levels is 30-60 minutes per day. Take a look at Sagi Kalev's pictures (the trainer in Body Beast) and I think you can assume safely that he knows what he's talking about.

3) I'll also second NOT to go back to lifting the same muscle groups after a 3 hour break. You don't want to interrupt the recovery cycle that your body will already be in.

4) Final point - P90X is not a mass building program. As Paul pointed out, it will help you get all around fit, cut, and healthy. There is limited muscle hypertrophy with it because it doesn't focus specifically on it; that's not the main purpose in the program. If you are just looking to get bigger, take a look at Body Beast, because that's it's single goal: Getting bigger muscles.
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/17/13 9:36 AM as a reply to phoenixhawk.
phoenixhawk:
4) Final point - P90X is not a mass building program. As Paul pointed out, it will help you get all around fit, cut, and healthy. There is limited muscle hypertrophy with it because it doesn't focus specifically on it; that's not the main purpose in the program. If you are just looking to get bigger, take a look at Body Beast, because that's it's single goal: Getting bigger muscles.

I would say that up to a point P90X is probably decent at building mass. An advanced lifter isn't going to put on mass on P90X, but to a point many people will (and have).

The resistance training programming in P90X has a LOT in common with bodybuilding routines. The key to bodybuilding (i.e. mass) is high reps (i.e. > 8), short rest, multiple multiple multiple sets, muscle isolation (like with lateral raises, tricep extensions, etc), working the same muscle from multiple angles, and highly split routines with a body part worked only once a week or so. That is pretty much P90X in a nutshell, and it's really not THAT different from Body Beast and other bodybuilding programs. There's a lot more to it, of course, but the resistance part of it definitely resembles mass building programs.

It's strength training programs that really differ markedly from P90X -- where you focus on 3 sets of 5 reps for a compound lift and that's it. And you build some mass (not as much as a bodybuilding program) but what you really build is strength.
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/17/13 9:58 AM as a reply to PaulX2.
Good thread to read! Like alot of the comments.
I also thought if you're not gassed after a P90X workout
then you're simply not pushing it hard enough.
Add weight, add reps, add count but it should work you enough.

Totally agree that the P90X series is more about life fitness, not body building stuff al Arnold S.
Like Paul's schedule but "Kempo"? Not sure about that one.
I mean it's fun but it really wasn't a great workout.
Wouldn't a Recover & mobility day there be better between the two weight days?
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/17/13 10:55 AM as a reply to fog5.
fog5:
Totally agree that the P90X series is more about life fitness, not body building stuff al Arnold S.

Just look at some bodybuilding routines, though -- the workout scheduling is awfully similar. What differentiates it is the non-lifting stuff, i.e. plyo, kenpo, yoga, and the emphasis on calorie restriction.

fog5:
Like Paul's schedule but "Kempo"? Not sure about that one.
I mean it's fun but it really wasn't a great workout.
Wouldn't a Recover & mobility day there be better between the two weight days?

I see your point, but Kenpo always felt to me like a recovery and mobility workout. The long stretch in the beginning felt really good the day after Legs & Back, and the relatively mild cardio workout made me at least feel productive. I never really cared for X Stretch with P90X, Relief with Asylum, or Rec & Mob with X2 -- I felt like I got more out of yoga or even just pushing the kids in the stroller if I needed something low intensity for recovery.
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/17/13 6:49 PM as a reply to PaulX2.
Yes but those differences like Plyo, yoga, even the core programs
(i simply can't include Kempo as work out! lol)
are 1/2 the week and that's why I wouldn't really call the program
a good body building program. I certainly think you can get muscular
and definition but if someone is wanting to look like some of those
huge dudes, this program isn't the one.

I'm surprised you never got anything out of the X2 R&M.
Not sure how long you stuck with it. I know for me, reading some of my earlier posts,
I thought this dvd was a waste of time, but you know after you get down the techniques,
(and on the downside, that does take time to figure out) i have found it one of the nicest
suprises with X2. It really gets to those muscles that you normally don't activate,
even with these programs, and is really benificial for everyday life. I had been
doing the X-stretch for a couple of years, but will still got sore the day after say,
helping a friend move, but since i started with this myofacial rolling, new activities
don't leave me sore the next day. Maybe I'm just too old at 51, but i have to tell you I've
done a complete 180 on my original opinion on this R&M. I hate sounding like a damn info-mercial, but just being honest here! lol
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/17/13 8:06 PM as a reply to fog5.
X2 R&M was useful once. After that I knew how to foam roll, and I just did what I needed. But after a few repeat viewings I kind of gave up.
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/18/13 12:41 AM as a reply to PFaux.

The resistance training programming in P90X has a LOT in common with bodybuilding routines. The key to bodybuilding (i.e. mass) is high reps (i.e. > 8), short rest, multiple multiple multiple sets, muscle isolation (like with lateral raises, tricep extensions, etc), working the same muscle from multiple angles, and highly split routines with a body part worked only once a week or so. That is pretty much P90X in a nutshell, and it's really not THAT different from Body Beast and other bodybuilding programs. There's a lot more to it, of course, but the resistance part of it definitely resembles mass building programs.


I agree, people have gained muscle with P90X, not saying you won't. You will really only gain it up to a point though. Part of the P90X Certification (yes, I'm P90X Certified) includes Steve Edwards saying pretty much what I said: there is limited muscle hypertrophy with P90X because it concentrates on other things as well.

So yes, you can get somewhat bigger, but even Tony Horton knows P90X isn't made for that. At the Sunday beach workout in Santa Monica, after finishing my 3rd round of P90X and being only about 136 lbs at the time (and 4% body fat) how I could start gaining muscle. He said, "Go to the gym and lift heavy weights." I asked how I could do it with P90X, and he said to basically cut most of the cardio out, and sub out all of the push ups for some kind of bench press work, like doing presses with the hands in the same position as the push ups would be.

Have you done Body Beast? If so, you'll know Sagi teaches an entirely different approach to lifting. During the 6 week 2nd phase, "Bulk Phase," there is NO cardio. Lifting is more than just about massive numbers of sets, it's more about Time Under Tension (TUT), and to do that there are multiple types of sets, that as you said hit the muscles from different angles. The Book of Beast says:

To Summarize
you still want to get pumped and stay pumped for the duration of the workout, but the methodology is different. Since time under tension is now the target, different strategies can be employed (such as prefatigue sets) to avoid the need to use heavy weight. The trick is to fall within the 40- to 70-second range.


P90X employs old school lifting which is what you described. There is nothing wrong with that, it worked for years and still does. However, there are other approaches that programs like Body Beast, and competitive Bodybuilders use. Focus is more on the eccentric movement of the set instead of just on the concentric. Tempo of the workouts is different.

So I disagree that building muscle or lifting the way you described is what P90X is in a nutshell. P90X is an all around health and fitness program (as Tony Horton describes it). It incorporates 3 days of lifting/strength training per day, but it also varies from building muscle 4 days per week (Plyo, Yoga, Kenpo, and Rest aren't geared toward muscle hypertrophy). Body Beast does 6 days per week of nothing but lifting weights. It has one goal and one goal only: To get bigger. It doesn't vary from that ever, it doesn't spread itself out to encompass other aspects of fitness. That's why Steve Edwards suggests against doing any hybrids with Body Beast, because the other programs have different agendas.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just a different opinion of what P90X goes for, and what it was originally designed for.

Derek
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/18/13 5:47 AM as a reply to phoenixhawk.
phoenixhawk:
At the Sunday beach workout in Santa Monica, after finishing my 3rd round of P90X and being only about 136 lbs at the time (and 4% body fat) how I could start gaining muscle. He said, "Go to the gym and lift heavy weights."

Depends how heavy, though. If you're doing a 5RM weight for 3 sets, you will get really strong and get some hypertrophy -- but you will get more hypertrophy if you're doing 12RM sets. Time/volume is the stimulus for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, i.e. getting 'big'. Intensity/weight is the stimulus for myofibrillar hypertrophy, i.e. getting strong.

phoenixhawk:
Have you done Body Beast? If so, you'll know Sagi teaches an entirely different approach to lifting. During the 6 week 2nd phase, "Bulk Phase," there is NO cardio. Lifting is more than just about massive numbers of sets, it's more about Time Under Tension (TUT), and to do that there are multiple types of sets, that as you said hit the muscles from different angles.

Yes, I did Body Beast. And still, workout by workout, the shoulder, arms, back, and leg routines bear a lot of resemblance to the similar workouts in P90X. The body part splitting is similar. The emphasis on short rest is similar. While you do supersets and giant sets in BB, you're basically just alternating single sets with short rest in P90X (chest-back-chest-back etc), and the rest intervals are short enough to still fall into that paradigm. Strength training routines require about 4-5 minutes rest between sets, because that's how long it takes to re-phosphorylate most of your creatine; whereas bodybuilding is basically inducing a metabolic challenge with short rest -- much more similar to the timing of P90X.

So I disagree that building muscle or lifting the way you described is what P90X is in a nutshell. P90X is an all around health and fitness program (as Tony Horton describes it).

I agree that P90X is an all around fitness program. But the weightlifting is informed more by bodybuilding routines than strength training for sure. Chest + Back and Legs + Back are virtually metcon workouts, so I think there are elements of both. Shoulders and Arms is plain old bodybuilding.
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/18/13 11:18 PM as a reply to PFaux.
I agree on most of your points, I think we're saying a lot of the same things. I just see a difference in the way Sagi lifts, compared to the technique Tony uses. Tony follows the old-school 1 count up, 1 count down rule. Sagi follows (for the most part) a 1 up, 2 down pace hitting the negative more. I've seen muscle growth in both types of workouts, and there is evidence in bodybuilding for years that both work.. they're just different.

I think my biggest point overall is that P90X doesn't focus specifically on building muscle, which is why Steve Edwards says there will be limited hypertrophy from it. Body Beast ONLY goes for hypertrophy, so you can get bigger in the same amount of time with Beast than P90X, IMHO. You get more fit, and healthy, with P90X.

Which takes me back to the OP, and my assumption that he is adding extra lifting on top of P90X because he wants to get bigger. In my opinion, that goes against what P90X is going for, is overtraining, and he could be pushing harder for better results with P90X alone.
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RE: Opinions on Lifting on top of P90X routine
1/22/13 11:06 AM as a reply to phoenixhawk.
I guess i shouldn't find it surprising that everyone assumes that i'm after gaining mass when i tell them i'm doing additional weight lifting.

However, thats not the goal. And personally... i wouldn't be doing p90x if all i wanted to do was gain mass, in fact, i'd probably not be doing any cardio at all. You can debate as much as you want over what program promotes mass building best, but the truth is that ANY resistance program is at least potentially mass building. Some will do it better then others, but the real determining factor is nutrition. It doesn't matter what training your doing, its virtually biochemically impossible to add mass (in the form of muscle) and lose mass (in the form of fat). Judging by the fact that the P90X nutrition guide only discusses how to create a calorie defecit, i'm going to assume the program wasn't ultimately designed to be mass building. i'm not trying to put on muscle in my p90x or my weight training at the gym. I'm just trying to burn fat and hang onto the muscle i have. I wouldn't expect anyone to add mass if they followed the nutrition guide. Unless maybe they are brand spanking new to lifting. However, a lot of people will assume they have added muscle mass when they see more revealed in the mirror.

Probably your all going to tell me i need to do more cardio. I've been doing insanity or aslyum for over a year straight aside from recovery weeks and month or so off for an injury. All my lifts suffered, not surprisingly. But my fat loss and physical development started to stagnate too. Its time to swtich gears.

but i still have the same goals. the extra resistance workouts are a means of burning more calories and not doing cardio. I don't go that heavy. I do go about as fast as i can and try to take between 30 - 60 or less between sets. Witch, btw, is pretty much the same type of lifting with the same goals as p90x. if i wanted to grow muscles i'd be going about it a much different way and eatting at a surplus rather then a defecit.

As far as not working out hard enough during p90x... I do my push ups to failure, then try to squeeze a few more. I do my pull ups to failure, then i use an assist device and go to failure. All the ones where i pick a weight (and reps aren't specified) i hit failure around 9 reps (except lawn mower). If anyone can suggest away to work harder then that, i'm all ears. I don't know, after peeling my ass off the coach ever other day post Insanity workout, its honestly not that difficult to get in the gym for another resistance work out. its basically the same as a double split routine. And personally i don't think a few sets of bench press and dumbell flys on top of a push up assortment is all that redundant.

after following all the rules for the better part of 20 years, bending them for 3 weeks out of 3 months might just be a worth while practice. and to be honest with you, i'm not really breaking any of the 'rules of lifting' lol. the only thing thats really outside the norm (other then the high volume, and some might not even think of it as super high volume) is hitting the same body part twice in one day. one might debate how much of an issue this is as well. I'd rather hit it twice in the same day then twice in consecutive days for instance
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